Finding Sustainability Through Language
[intro music]
Jordan 0:04
Hey, this is Jordan,
Mimi 0:06
And this is Mimi.
Jordan 0:07
And welcome to the Imperfect Eco-Hero podcast.
Mimi 0:10
The series that connects community, normalizes imperfections and empowers heroes.
[end of intro music]
Mimi 0:19
Hey, Jordan.
Jordan 0:21
Yo, what's up, Mimi? How you doing?
Mimi 0:23
I'm good. I'm good. How are you?
Jordan 0:25
[laughs] As good as you can be?
Mimi 0:30
Yeah [laughs]
Jordan 0:27
In this pandemic. Yeah, I always find that question funny when someone's like "Hey, what's up?", I'm like "Uh, my weight? Uh, my mental health?" I never know, really, how to answer that question.
Mimi 0:40
So your mental health is up? That's good.
Jordan 0:42
Oh, I meant like, more problems. But yeah, sure. [laughs]
Mimi 0:45
Oh, up in problems... [laughs]
Jordan 0:48
Yeah that...that, too.
Mimi 0:52
Yeah, it's true. I guess. I'm still like, anytime somebody asks me, "How are you?" I always say "I'm good". But I don't actually fully check in with myself. So.
Jordan 1:01
And I also think sometimes we say good, because we also don't want to deal with the fact that we might not be.
Mimi 1:07
Yeah, that's true. Sometimes it can be, like, hard to...to face realities, right?
Jordan 1:12
Because as soon as you don't say it's good, people ask questions. And you have to kind of be mentally and emotionally prepared.
Mimi 1:20
Yeah, exactly. Because then yeah, you're having this conversation with another person, and you have to involve them in your emotions. And that can be...that can be challenging for sure.
Jordan 1:28
Especially if you haven't had it with yourself yet.
Mimi 1:31
Yeah, yeah. Totally. [laughs]
Jordan 1:35
Oh, my God. So yeah. Speaking of... mental health, and how we're doing! This climate crisis, am I right? [laughs]
Mimi 1:44
Yeah. So in addition to the pandemic, we're also dealing with so many other things, like the climate crisis.
Jordan 1:52
Name of few. Yeah.
Mimi 1:54
Yeah. Just, just two...two small things, pandemic and a climate crisis? No big deal right? [irony]
Jordan 1:59
Oh yeah. That's not keeping me up at night. [irony]
Mimi 2:01
No, definitely not! [irony]
Jordan 2:03
Super easy to understand. Everyone's on board helping. [irony]
Mimi 2:07
Yeah. Yeah, and it's weird, because I've been using this pandemic, to think about, like, how, how we belong within nature, you know? And how, like, what our part in the climate crisis is, like...
Jordan 2:24
Do you think that's more pronounced now, because of the pandemic and the fact that, like, it's been very obvious that humans were kind of the catalyst?
Mimi 2:33
Oh, yeah, 100%
Jordan 2:33
For it?
Mimi 2:36
100%. And I was just like, this last year, probably has been like, in terms of like, my personal like, carbon footprint, this past year has probably been like my smallest carbon footprint, because, you know, I haven't been buying clothes, I haven't been traveling, I haven't. Like, I've just kind of been just like, sitting around at home, like, in my own little, like, two kilometer radius, right?
Jordan 3:01
Mm hmm.
Mimi 3:02
And so it's just like...Is this how I have to spend the rest of my life in this, like, small little bubble in order to like, do my part for the climate crisis, right?
Jordan 3:13
Mm hmm, 'cause there are studies that have shown that air pollution is down like this...it has been the lowest because of the lack of transportation across the world, but at the same time, it's also been the hottest the Earth has ever been. And I don't know, for me, it's actually been more eye opening in the sense that even with everyone, like, like you being at home, reducing their like consumption, their waste, their energy, like, there are so many other things at play, for climate change. And I think that, for me, has been what's so eye-opening as...as much of it as it is about, like individuals making changes. Like there's also another side to it. Like, I think it's shown us that, yeah, making better choices, like results in, like, positive, like climate changes, but at the same time, it's that's also not enough as a standalone. Like, we have to do a lot more for our like other industries and systems to also make those same changes.
Mimi 4:17
Oh, yeah, for sure. But I think I think there is something to say with...with our own changes, and I agree with you completely. Like it's...it's not the accountability isn't totally on us as individuals. There's, there's a balance right, but, but I think part of it comes down to, like, how...how we understand our relationship with nature.
Jordan 4:39
Yeah, that's like the big first half of it.
Mimi 4:41
Yeah, yeah. And like, I...like how do you...how do you think of yourself within nature and how do you relate to nature?
Jordan 4:50
It's...that's a funny question. I thought you were asking that rhetorically.
Mimi 4:53
No! [laughs]
Jordan 4:54
And I was like yeah, yeah! But that's a question that you don't normally think about, like, outside of yourself. Because I feel like for me growing up in an urban city, nature has always been something that I've enjoyed doing. Like it's something that I've had the privilege to go out and see through camping, through travel, through hiking, but I don't live in it—
Mimi 5:13
So it's very recreational for you.
Jordan 5:15
Exactly, but I don't actually ever live in it. I don't. So for me, nature is something that seems so separate to me. And something that I also don't think really affects me and my...my day-to-day life like it is something that's more recreational, something that I just do to go enjoy. It's almost like a hobby. If that makes sense. Like it's...and I feel like I only really ever noticed how nature is doing is only when I go to enjoy it. I don't really think about it.
Mimi 5:46
So it's like it's...it's almost like a separate part of, like, your main life, like your main life is like, family/work/home/whatever it may be. And then nature's separate from that.
Jordan 5:56
100% like I think it's an—
Mimi 5:58
Interesting!
Jordan 5:58
—it's like a big separate part of who I am. But I don't actually think of it as...I wish it was like I definitely wish I lived in nature more and...and got to appreciate like, it and the world more cause I definitely think that's where I'm the happiest, but in terms of right now, no, I think it is....it is separate for me. Why? What do you think?
Mimi 6:19
Well, I think, I think in a lot of ways I can definitely relate to you because I too, grew up in an urban setting. I still live in an urban setting. But then at the same time, you know, especially as a kid, I was quite impacted by nature. So for example, like if it rained, like I always got a headache as a kid. And even to this day, like—
Jordan 6:45
I get it now, I get that now. The weather headaches.
Mimi 6:48
Yeah, even t...even to this day. Like, if, if it's been, like, overcast for a few days. And now I live, like, closer to the ocean, so it's often overcast. That first day that it's sunny again, I can feel my energy levels go up so much. And I become so much happier. So even though I live in an urban city, I'm still impacted by...by nature and by...by the Earth, right?
Jordan 7:13
Interesting. So you're talking about it more...Like you're not talking about necessarily seasonal depression? Because that is a big thing like you're—
Mimi 7:20
No! No, no, no.
Jordan 7:21
Cause I know that the sun does provide vitamin D which does help boost [laughs] I was gonna say estrogen. What's the happy hormone? Dopamine! Dopamine, isn't it?
Mimi 7:31
[laughs] Yeah! Yeah yeah!
Jordan 7:32
Don't, listen, I'm not a scientist. Don't...I just know that the sun, like, helps you. We used to have sunlights or like UV lights?
Mimi 7:41
Yeah, like the SAD lights.
Jordan 7:44
But you're saying that...The weather for you does more than that.
Mimi 7:49
Yeah, yeah! And I'm sure there are elements of Seasonal Affective Disorder. Was it...what is it? SAD?
Jordan 7:57
Oh, yeah, it is. It is SAD. Which is so appropriate!
Mimi 7:59
Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don't...I suffer from that a little bit. And I think a lot of people living in Canada do during the winter, because we have such limited sunlight during the winter. But—
Jordan 8:13
Especially the coasts, like you out east and out west. Like yeah, you guys see the least amount of...of sun.
Mimi 8:20
Yeah, because they're even even when it is daylight, it can often just be like, cloudy. [laughs] We don't even see the sun. But yeah, so I guess yeah, I see. I have always been influenced by nature and connected to nature. And I think the other, the other sleight of hand there too, is that I always grew up around animals, like whether that was pets, or whether that was like, critters in the backyard. And I've always felt a sense of connection to them.
Jordan 8:53
Do you think that was innate or something that you learned? Or was it something that you, like, watched as a kid?
Mimi 8:59
I'm not sure. I'm not really sure where that came from? But I definitely know I feel, like, a deep sense of connection to non-human animals. And then yeah, I guess I guess with climate change, seeing how that is impacting non-human life, whether that's animals or plants or the Earth itself, like
Jordan 9:22
I'm like curious if, if that's kind of how you define climate change and like also what you think about first when you hear the word climate change, or you know, this climate emergency is...is how our relationship with others and like you said non-human others and other things—
Mimi 9:40
Yeah!
Jordan 9:41
—other and like nature, like and how—
Mimi 9:43
Well yeah, as soon as I hear the words climate change, like, I had this, like, visceral, emotional reaction of, like, sadness and fear. It's like a mix of the two. And it's not even fear for, like, my own life. It's fear for...for the lives of non-human life and then also future generations of non-human life and future generations of human life, you know? Like it's fear for...it's fear for others not fear for, for myself, per se, which is weird that I don't necessarily get scared on my own behalf.
Jordan 10:19
I've never lived through any natural disaster or anything that climate change has affected.
Mimi 10:27
Yeah,
Jordan 10:27
And so for me, it's easy to not be scared because it doesn't feel like something...
Mimi 10:31
And that's interesting, because you still said that, like nature wasn't really part of your main life. Like it's kind of a hobby, it's a recreation. Can you separate yourself from climate change quite easily?
Jordan 10:43
Oh, 100%, so... but at the same time, like kind of similar to you, when I first think of climate change my...I just had these images of you know, those polar bears on icebergs and icebergs melting, the water of wildfires in Australia, like deforestation...Like I do go first to animals and, and nature more than anything else. And there's the controversy around that, because a lot of people are saying that what the climate movement is missing is that human aspect to like, there's a lot of communities of people, like you said, that are being impacted. But often the narrative is like, other like, not, in the sense of just nature on a whole, but like this separate entity, like, climate change is affecting the polar bears, which are, like, so far removed from most people, or the wildfires, or like, I don't know. For me, it just always felt like climate change was so detached from me, like it was affecting other things in the world, but not me. And I always had to actively learn about what it was doing, because like, I just never saw it, like, at all, growing up.
Mimi 11:52
Yeah, that's, that's...yeah, I think that's really interesting, but I also think it's really relatable, especially to people growing up in a similar context to us, right?
Jordan 12:02
Mm hmm.
Mimi 12:03
Yeah. And like, have you? Have you been actively trying to be part of the climate solution?
Jordan 12:13
Yeah, I, but I find that to be what's so difficult for me, and why I find trying to be an environmentalist and do positive changes in the world so hard is that because I'm so far removed from climate change, I don't actually know where to start half the time. And I still don't even feel like that the efforts that I've put in have really been that impactful, because a lot of what I've been doing hasn't resulted in...in immediate change. And I find out also to be what's so difficult about even just kind of finding your place in this community, is this idea that like, we, I don't know...if you don't have something that's driving you, and it's just this, like, just the world on a whole or like animals on a whole, I find like, that's what makes it feel so overwhelming. In like, kind of hopeless in the sense that, like, I just, there's so many ways that you can help, I only know a fraction of them. And a lot of the ways that we can help don't result in immediate change. So half the time I feel like what I'm doing is almost pointless, if that...which is a terrible way of thinking about it! But it's that idea of, like, not being able to see immediate results.
Mimi 13:35
Yeah that instant gratification. I mean, we're in a world where we're obsessed with instant gratification, you know, like, think of...think of social media that's, like we get such a high off like likes and, and reactions and stuff like that, right? We want that.
Jordan 13:50
Mm hmm. But I think it extends further, like I don't know, for me, I never, like you said, I never attributed to how climate change affected me. It was more...But I meant...I wonder if it's just more validation, that the work I'm putting in is impactful, but I wonder if that that's just coming from a place of privilege, where I'm used to the things that I do, like, resulting in something if that makes any sense?
Mimi 14:16
Totally. I think for...for me, one of the ways that, like, I've traditionally tried to be part of the climate solutions, by making greener choices, but the more I think about that, the more I'm like, what the heck does that even mean? You know?
Jordan 14:31
It's such a broad...topic!
Mimi 14:33
I know, like, but there's so much, like, messaging about like, go green and, you know, sustainability and like...But like, even the word sustainability, like what does that even mean? And at the same time, like, if we think about like, from, like, a consumer point of view of, like, buying green and like making more like mindful choices, about what we're purchasing and what we're providing our dollar to.
Jordan 15:02
Yeah, well, that's a really good point!
Mimi 15:04
But it's not...But sustainability isn't always attainable because so often, the greener, the "greener choice" is way more expensive and way less accessible. Right?
Jordan 15:16
Mm hmm, but it's a quick solution.
Mimi 15:18
Yeah. And it kind of makes you like when you, when you are at the store and you buy that greener choice, you feel better about yourself, right?
Jordan 15:26
Oh, yeah. 1,000%. So but it also yeah, I don't know what...I don't know how to explain it. But yeah, I feel like I'm, I'm doing my part. But it's also a quick solution. Like, it's a quick fix.
Mimi 15:36
Yeah, you get that validation.
Jordan 15:37
Quickly!
Mimi 15:38
Yeah, exactly. But then I'm trying to think of, like, ways that we can be sustainable, whatever that means, without, like, buying green or going green. And, and, I think, the way to start to become more sustainable, and it's very attainable for everyone, because it doesn't cost us anything is to think about how we think and talk about nature, like through our language.
Jordan 16:04
Mm hmm, but..but at the same time, like, what do you define as sustainable?
Mimi 16:09
Oh, I don't even know because that word is so loaded, you know? And it's so hard to unpack that word. But I think I think for me, from my perspective, it's...sustainability kind of goes back to like, that first question I asked you about, like, where we see ourselves in nature, and kind of repairing the relationship we have with nature. So it's not just an other, or it's not just a hobby, but it's actually a part of us. And we're a part of it. And instead of seeing ourselves as, like, superior to nature, we see ourselves as a part of nature.
Jordan 16:47
Interesting.
Mimi 16:48
And like, I think, I think language is such a powerful tool, when we talk about that kind of stuff. Because what language is, the idea of language is so empowering, because it gives us a way to communicate, it gives us a way to express ourselves. But on the other side of that, it can also be incredibly limiting, because it kind of impacts the way we understand ourselves and how we also understand nature. Right?
Jordan 17:18
And l..—
Mimi 17:18
And like— Sorry, go ahead.
Jordan 17:20
No, I was gonna say, and language is so tied to identity as well as culture, so it...it really differs depending on who you are, how you grew up, and yeah, I...
Mimi 17:31
Yeah, I think it can definitely guide the way you think about yourself in relation to nature, just the language you grew up speaking or thinking in?
Jordan 17:39
Mm hmm, exactly.
Mimi 17:41
And like English, which is what we're...we're using right now and which is what we're always using between the two of us.
Jordan 17:49
Are we, though, sometimes? Sometimes, I swear...
Mimi 17:52
Sometimes it's just like, not even a language, it's just noises and...
Jordan 17:57
Pig Latin and...
Mimi 17:58
Exactly, yeah, but like, when it comes to English, certain values are so deeply rooted in the language and through like, the development of English and then the consequences of that...those values have, like, shaped the way we see the world and how we interact with the world, right? So this...this has, like, caused us to think about nature in a very, like, exploitative way.
Jordan 18:25
What do you mean by that?
Mimi 18:27
Well, I mean, it...English is so deeply rooted and in things like colonialism, right? And like colonialism, definitely exploited nature. I mean, it still exploits nature.
Jordan 18:40
Now. Sorry, maybe this is just me not coming from an environmental background. And I don't know if this is something that you have ever experienced. But I find, like, certain words like colonialism, and capitalism, like, I understand the vague idea of it. But like, I never really understood how it's connected to climate change. And I don't know if that's a bigger topic to talk about later, but it might be something good, even just for some listeners, is that idea of capitalism is pretty new. And not new in the sense that it's never happened. I think it's just new in the sense that we're thinking.
Mimi 19:14
Well, I mean, I can't speak on everyone's definition of it. But I think, at the base, this idea of capitalism is that, you know, the classic, if you work hard, you'll succeed. But that's...that's not the case. Because there's so many systems at play, and it's...somebody...in order for someone to succeed like in in practice, in order for someone to succeed, often somebody else has to suffer, and whether that somebody else is a human through, like exploitation or slavery or whatever it may be, or if it's, if it's nature, and we exploit nature all the time for our own benefit, right? in order for humans to "succeed" or to achieve some sort of progress. And usually, usually that progress is in the form of, like, economics, you know?
Jordan 20:08
Like economic gain.
Mimi 20:09
Exactly.
Jordan 20:10
But do you think that that's done because of some sort of perceived hierarchy? like, is that?
Mimi 20:15
Oh, yeah, for sure!
Jordan 20:16
Is that kind of...that's kind of how I always saw this problem of climate change is that it's...it's people thinking that they're kind of above the...nature and above animals and also above other people. Like, it's that idea that like, you have some sort of right to it?
Mimi 20:38
Yeah, I mean, for sure. I mean, like, even look at like, in English, when we talk about nature. If there's a thing in nature, we refer...like, the pronoun we give to it, is 'it'? You know? We don't say 'she', we don't say 'he', we don't say we say 'they'. So if it's, I don't know, grass, or if it's flowers, or if it's the ocean, you know, it's always 'it'. Like, the only exception to that is like, if it's a pet or an animal that's like, close to us, like a dog, you would say, oh, 'she' or 'he', you know? And I think that 'it' puts nature in a category of inanimate objects and away from humans, you know?
Jordan 21:27
This feels like, like, I don't know about other languages, but this feels like a problem in En...with the English language.
Mimi 21:35
Yeah, I mean, I can't, I really can't speak on other languages, and I don't want to get into that, because that's not my experience. But, but with English, there's definitely those...those deep rooted values and assumptions about nature, that nature is closer to an inanimate object than it is to humans, right? And through, through just like those nouns using 'it', like referring to nature as 'it' that's already, like a prime example of how...how we're disassociating ourselves with nature, right?
Jordan 22:03
Why do you think...why do you think we do that?
Mimi 22:06
[repeats, unsure] Why do you think we do that?
Jordan 22:09
Yeah. Like, in your opinion, like, why do you think we refer to nature as an inanimate object?
Mimi 22:16
I don't know why we do it, but I know, like, the consequences of that could be that, you know, we're just...we're separating ourselves from nature. And then, and then it's easier for us to see ourselves as superior to nature.
Jordan 22:28
It...just, it'd be interesting to understand what that lesser quality is, is it the fact that it doesn't have a soul? Like, is that kind of like it doesn't, it doesn't have its own way of thinking, is it just because we have—
Mimi 22:40
—I think we...—
Jordan 22:40
—the ability to take it out? Like I just be so curious to know, on a psychology—
Mimi 22:45
—we also...—
Jordan 22:45
—like a psychological basis, like what it is that, like...why we see that hierarchy?
Mimi 22:50
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I, I really don't know why, why English was formed that way. But I think the values that are rooted in that can be really harmful for nature. And even the way, like, we talk about things that we're doing in nature, usually it's like, the human has the agency in the sentence. It's not nature, it's not the earth that has agency like it's a human doing the action, you know? So yeah, it's just interesting to think about the actual, the words that we're using to talk about nature.
Jordan 23:29
Because if I'm now again, if I'm not mistaken, and we can definitely bring in someone who knows more about this, from the little I remember researching, a lot of that idea of giving nature, not just pronouns, but just kind of another definition that isn't just an inanimate object comes from a lot of indigenous wisdom. I know when I was doing some research the other day, I came across this indigenous professor and scientist, Robin Wall Kimmerer. And a lot of what she talks about in her...in her book, and a lot of what she kind of teaches is that the key to kind of restoring our understanding of climate change in nature is through something called The Grammar of Animacy. This kind of means viewing nature, not as a resource, but like an elder.
Mimi 24:26
Like a relative almost.
Jordan 24:27
Exactly like recognizing that kinship with both plants, mountains and lakes.
Mimi 24:31
Exactly, yeah!
Jordan 24:32
And then just when you were talking about this, it just made me think about, yeah, that...and that's so rooted in indigenous language and philosophy, like, where nature isn't regarded as 'it'.
Mimi 24:43
Yeah. But then that's, that's reflecting the indigenous values, right? Where the...the mainstream Western English values don't...don't emphasize this kinship with nature in fact it emphasizes the superiority to nature.
Jordan 25:00
Yeah, exactly. And it was just yeah, that just reminded me of, like, an example of a language that does the opposite of what we're doing.
Mimi 25:12
Yeah.
Jordan 25:13
Yeah. And that idea is kind of... it's an interesting one to think about, because I definitely would not be referring to nature or animals as something, like, related to me. It almost seems so foreign to think about because I've grown up with that idea that we're not on...kind of the same level.
Mimi 25:33
Yeah. And then I guess, like that, like that idea, is one element. But then another element is that English can actually normalize violence against nature and against like non-human animals. And so I think it was last year that PETA put out a list of idioms that we commonly use that—
Jordan 25:55
What are idioms?
Mimi 25:56
Like, just like sayings.
Jordan 25:58
Sayings okay, yeah.
Mimi 25:59
Yeah, that, that...and they do just that, they, like, normalize violence. So these are like very direct examples cause I wrote a couple of them down to share.
Jordan 26:08
I think the one that I know I use very frequently is "killing two birds with one stone".
Mimi 26:14
Yeah, so that's one of...one of the ones that PETA put on their...their website, and they suggest saying "feed two birds with one scone". And so...—
Jordan 26:24
"Feed two birds with one scone". Okay.
Mimi 26:26
Yeah. And then, like the idea of like "to be a guinea pig", you know, like, "Oh, I was her guinea pig", right? "I was just the guinea pig of this experiment", you know, to say, "to be a test tube".
Jordan 26:38
Oh, interesting.
Mimi 26:40
Yeah. And then "a wild goose chase". They're suggesting to say "chasing rainbows". Yeah. And then "take the bull by the horns", "take the flower—
Jordan 26:51
That's one my mom uses often!
Mimi 26:53
Yeah, so tell your mom to say "take the flower by the thorns".
Jordan 26:57
Oh, that's a good one!
Mimi 26:58
Yeah. And then, um, "bring home the bacon", "bring home the bagels". And I actually, I, bagels are like my favorite thing, so I like the—
Jordan 27:08
Same!
Mimi 27:08
—idea of “bring home the bagels”. Yeah. And then they have a whole bunch. Like, you can go on their website and check it out. But yeah, basically, their...their message is that these sayings can normalize violence against theirs. They're talking specifically about animals, but...
Jordan 27:30
Oh, yeah, I can totally think of—
Mimi 27:32
Yeah, go ahead.
Jordan 27:33
No, I was gonna say, like, I know that they're focusing on animals. But there's a lot of things that we use that, um, have like a deeper rooted meaning if you really think about it. I remember last year, I think it was during Black History Month, they were talking about how people need to stop using "quiet from the peanut gallery". And the whole history behind the fact that a lot of African Americans used to sit in this gallery separate of everyone else, not to sit, to actually stand. And if they were rowdy, or anything the...like, the white folk in America would essentially, like, tell them to be quiet and would get angry at them. And so when you'd say quiet to the peanut gallery, like there's a whole deep rooted, like, history of racism there and so not to not to go on a whole different topic, because that—
Jordan 28:18
No, no, no...
Jordan 28:19
—that's a big one. But I just thought of that as another type of way that the words that we use and the sayings that we use, and that idea, not of violence per se, in my example, but like negativity towards another group.
Mimi 28:33
Well it's harmful, right?
Jordan 28:34
Exactly.
Mimi 28:35
Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, yeah, this idea, the normalization of, of superiority, right? Whether that's between people, or of people.
Jordan 28:48
Yeah.
Mimi 28:49
Right. So...yeah, and I guess like PETA, again, they're just speaking about animals, but you, there's so many things in so many ways that our language does normalize, like violence against the earth and violence towards the earth, right. And even like, on a mass scale, there's exploitation and violence through through language, and especially kind of going back to this like lens of colonialism and capitalism. And so, like, this idea of, like, objectification, which is what we sort of talked about before is, like, seeing nature as the other or as a resource, right? And where we could be seeing it as a...as a relative or as a kinship. But we're seeing it as something separate from us.
Jordan 29:37
That we can use.
Mimi 29:39
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And often it's based on...based on the usefulness to humans, like, that's how we talk about it. Like if it's useful, and in one way, that's, that's why we value, like, that tree or that plant or that animal, right? But if it isn't of use to us, then we don't value it as much.
Jordan 30:00
Yeah, and that kind of all stems back to what you were saying about how, like, we really need to realize that we're not separate from nature, like we're a part of it.
Mimi 30:08
Yeah.
Jordan 30:09
Like it's all around us. And we're not at a...like, we're all....I don't want to say an even playing field... But yeah, that idea that we need to pay it more respect, I don't know. This made me think about a story you told me about when you were wwoofing in Norway. And like, their idea of, like, now I can't remember...about not owning the land, but being...
Mimi 30:32
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the next thing that, like, I wanted to, like, point out is this idea of privatization and ownership, right? So the idea that, like, nature is our own, right? Whether that...whether that's an animal, whether that's land, whatever it may be, but...so we can look at it on, like, big scales, like political borders. So like, we can say: Oh, the Government of Canada, like, this is all their land. And then everything south of that is the United States of America, right? So this, even like, on that, like, really large nations scale, we have this ownership of land, but then on the individual level, we have like this, this idea of like, each person can achieve, like, their own land, buy their own land. And in fact, it's like, it's listed as, like, a goal for people to have, you know, to, like, have their own land, buy a house, you know?
Jordan 31:31
It's in ever.. it's in the American dream. It's in..it's what everyone aspires to have.
Mimi 31:36
Exactly so it's really weird that we have that as a aspiration this, this idea to own land, but what does that even mean owning land? Like, how can...how can a human claim that all of this earth belongs to him or her, you know?
Jordan 31:54
Or them.
Mimi 31:55
Or them, yeah!
Jordan 31:57
Yeah, that's, I guess that's an interesting way of putting because you don't like yeah, why do we have the authority to be on the land that we're on now and to cut down the trees and kind of disrupt nature just so we have a place to, to live in? It's only ours. And no one else's, no one else can enjoy it or appreciate it. It's just...
Mimi 32:20
Exactly so that goes back to like, yeah, when I...when I was wwoofing in Norway.
Jordan 32:25
Well, first let's describe what wwoofing is. Because, yeah, when I tell people we go wwoofing, it...— 'we', I have never gone, but when—
Mimi 32:31
Yeah, I was gonna say “Have you gone? I didn't know that!”
Jordan 32:32
No, I really want to! Yeah, explain what wwoofing is, because I know I didn't know it at first.
Mimi 32:37
Yeah, I mean, wwoofing is World Wide Organization [erratum: Opportunities] of Organic Farm. And I think most...most countries have their own like wwoof site, and basically you pay a membership, and then you get access to the contact information and like, information about different farms that exist in that country that are willing to take on wwoofers or just like farmhands. And it's... it's a great way to travel, usually. I mean, you have to, like, work it out with each individual farm post. But usually you do get room and board in, in exchange for like five or six hours of working on the farm a day. And some farmers are, like, really lenient, and they give you like, more than just, like, two day weekends, like they'll give you three day weekends. It really depends on what the farm needs, and also what the...what the wwoofer needs.
Jordan 33:32
But yeah, just to clarify to everyone else, like this does exist in a lot of countries.
Mimi 33:37
Yeah, yeah. So I went wwoofing in Norway a few years ago. And, first of all, I loved it. And I thought it was an amazing experience. But the thing that I really took away is the way Norwegians — and I'm specifically talking about Norwegians that live on a farm, I can't speak of all Norwegians, especially the ones that live in a city — but the Norwegians that live on farmland, like there's this idea that they're kind of like maintainers of the land instead of owners of the land. Even though technically they do own that plot of land like they, they do pay for it. They do...they purchase it. But yeah, so Norway has in their law, this idea that anyone can walk on anyone's property. So like, if you went hiking, for instance, sometimes the hiking trail would go right through somebody's property. And you can even camp on their property there. There's like a certain distance that you have to be away from a house and I think it's like 150 meters or something.
Jordan 34:39
Wow, wait, wait, wait! So like, I'm just picturing. Granted, I know you said it has to be a certain distance, but I'm just imagining some hiking trail or some campers out in my backyard. Is that kind of what it was?
Mimi 34:52
Yeah, exactly. I mean, in the city. I don't think it could work because nobody's property is that large. But yeah, in rural communities, yeah, you could just camp on somebody's property, that would be no issue. And in fact, it's encouraged. I think you can only stay, like, a certain amount of time. And then after that, you have to ask permission from the person that owns the land. But it, yeah, it's just this idea that, like, the land is everyone's you know, it's a shared responsibility, and everyone has to take care of the land and maintain the land.
Jordan 35:23
We're just kind of stewards of certain areas, but it's not like this is mine, totally mine. Like, this is just a land that just happens to be where I live, but like everyone can enjoy it.
Mimi 35:36
Yeah, exactly. And I remember there was this one, one morning, where with the family, like, we want...we sat at the top of this hill to drink coffee, and just like watched the sunrise and watched the morning come in from atop this hill, but we were just sitting on somebody's property and coming from Canada, that was such a weird feeling for me. Like, we were just like, sitting in somebodies like farmland and, and watching, watching the sunrise from their property. And then while, while I was working in the fields and stuff like that, sometimes I would see hikers just, like, walk through, you know?
Jordan 36:16
That's, I don't know why that kind of just blows my mind!
Mimi 36:19
I know!!
Jordan 36:19
As soon as you told me that, I was like, I can't imagine that being a thing here. Like people fight about someone's fence being like, an inch over into their property and be like you’re eating up now, a certain part of my property, or like people who have, like, trees that go on...into someone else's property, or I...here the land that you have is like, so precious, not in the sense that we take care of it. But in that, like, this is ours, like we've worked for it. And the idea to work towards, like, owning nature to me, like when you say it like that, it seems so backwards that we spend our whole lives earning money, just to own this piece of land and make it completely unlivable for anyone else but like me and my family.
Mimi 37:08
Yeah, but that idea of privatization is so normalized, you know?
Jordan 37:14
Yeah. Which is, which is insane if you think about it!
Mimi 37:18
Yeah! And then with privatization, and also with objectification, like they all kind of go hand in hand. But there's also commodification, right. So like, anything that humans can make money off of, they probably have made money off of in terms of like, nature, you know, so we have commodified trees, we've commodified plants, we've commodified animals, and we see the worth of nature through how much money those things can bring us, right?
Jordan 37:47
That's an interesting way, not even just how much it costs, but like how much we can benefit?
Mimi 37:53
Yeah, from it. Yeah, exactly. And so, you know, if, if the life of a certain animal isn't deemed to be worth that much financially, then sometimes it's not deemed to be worth that much morally, either.
Jordan 38:09
It's kind of that idea of, like, I know, there's a lot of debate...debates about veganism and how people are like, but how are dogs and cats prioritized more than, like, pigs and cows?
Mimi 38:22
Yeah, exactly.
Jordan 38:25
It's interesting. You can even say the same about plant life too, like there are certain plants and trees that are definitely valued much more than others.
Mimi 38:37
Oh, for sure. Yeah. And I think...I think scarcity plays a big part in that, you know, like, if something's more scarce, then it's going to be worth more.
Jordan 38:48
Mm hmm. Which, which almost seems, which I wonder if also plays into effect in that people, like owners of companies want that, you know what I mean?
Mimi 38:58
Oh, for sure they want that!
Jordan 38:59
They want scarcity, so that they can drive...
Mimi 39:02
They can charge a premium, and then—
Jordan 39:05
If something is more readily available, it's not... And I wonder if that also goes towards like, like you said about, the types of lands, the type of animals, the type of trees, the type of people that people try to commodify. Yeah, no, that's an interesting...This kind of blew my mind a little. To think about it like that.
Mimi 39:27
Yeah, yeah. And so it's just like, I guess, I guess I'm in a place where I'm thinking like, how can I use my thoughts and my words to become more sustainable, right, not just my dollar, not just what I'm purchasing. And, and how I'm not just like my actions, you know, but my actual my actual way of thinking and my way of talking about nature, and can I contribute to the climate solution through my words and through repairing this idea of, like, our relationship with nature so that we're not just commodifying nature or privatizing nature, or talking about nature as an other, but actually working towards a place where we see ourselves as equal to nature?
Jordan 40:17
Mm hmm. And I almost think...not even just equal, we almost need to respect it more like, we almost, I almost feel like...
Mimi 40:22
Yeah...Well, I guess equal in the sense that it's reciprocal. You know, like the relationship is reciprocal?
Jordan 40:28
Yeah I meant, I meant in the sense like equalism...I almost feel like we're a guest in nature so I almost feel like we need to bestow it more respect. I don't know about you. For Italians, like, we respect our elders a lot, like we give our grandparents just a lot of respect based on like, how much they worked and sacrificed for and I wonder if the same could be said for nature, mother Earth or mother Nature. That same idea of “it's given us a lot”.
Mimi 41:04
Yeah, somehow have that value instilled, right? And like, language, and when I say language I mean both the language that we think in and the language that we speak in, and so for me that's English but it's such a powerful tool. And I would argue that it's probably the most powerful that humans have, right?
Jordan 41:25
Like, you're saying it's the most powerful tool that we can make in terms of trying to live and be more sustainable and green.
Mimi 41:35
I think so, yeah
Jordan 41:36
It's like, it starts with the language
Mimi 41:38
It starts within yeah, and language is such a huge part of that.
Jordan 41:44
Where do you think people should start, though, cause I feel like for me, I definitely don't use the best language not such in term of this entire climate crisis but just in general the words that I use are very limited based on like we're I've grown up, what I've read—
Mimi 42:00
Well I mean like—
Jordan 42:01
— the news and all that sort of stuff...
Mimi 42:03
—I definitely don't have the solutions but for me, like, I try to be extra critical of the language that I'm using and, like, just really think about what...what impact my words can have on nature, you know? Like, from a young age you learn about how words can hurt your friends, you know? Or...
Jordan 42:25
Stick and stone can break...yeah.
Mimi 42:03
Exactly, exactly that idea but like how do my words harm nature and usually that's more indirect than it is direct, right like when we think of like the “stick and stones” like it can be a very direct harm like calling somebody a name or being rude right to their face. But with nature is a much more indirect way of harming nature but it's still harmful
Jordan 42:52
And you think if people, like, actively started working on changing their language maybe they would also see problems or solutions differently too? Like...
Mimi 43:06
I think that awareness is key. Awareness in anything is key, right?
Jordan 43:12
But specifically—
Mimi 43:13
But especially like self awareness and in that comes the language that you use in the way you talk about nature, I think that's really key.
Jordan 43:26
It almost feels like that's kind of the first step that everyone should be taking. It's kind of that self-analysis. I don't know about you I felt like 2020...like a lot of people said that 2020 was the worst year ever but I also saw people saying No I think it was the year for self awareness, it was that year like the Earth and everyone in it, like all the shit that we've been doing kinda came out, like the way that we've been—
Mimi 43:51
Yeah, it was... in a lot of ways it was a very humbling year for a lot of people, right? Because they had to face that self awareness.
Jordan 43:59
Yeah acknowledge...100%
Mimi 44:00
Yeah acknowledge that self-awareness and like that lack thereof.
Jordan 44:04
...Yeah exactly! Oh my God! Definitely! And yeah it almost feels like that kind of what 2021 was. It's taking all that you've learned in 2020 and like putting it to action and yeah language definitely has...language definitely is a place I know I definitely want to start. It's always just for me like where...where to start? I do have a recommendation though on a book if people do wanna kinda get...learn a bit kinda more about that idea of how we refer to nature as 'it' and how we should change that. I brought her up earlier. I read a book by Robin Wall Kimmerer and hum, it's called Braiding Sweetgrass.
Mimi 44:55
Oh yeah, that's a very popular one right now.
Jordan 44:58
100% and I think that's kind of a good place to start and like, what she does is she embraces the notion that plants and animals are kind of our oldest teachers, asks the question of nature with the tools of science and her major takeaway in this is that humans have a role to play in restoring the natural world and stopping the climate crisis. And it kinda helps going back to indigenous roots when indigenous communities kinda lived in complete harmony with nature, like for centuries. And so, I think that's kind of a nice place to start for people who kinda wanna [better] their understanding of nature and don't know where to start. She's an incredible place to start. Like, she's a mom, she's a scientist, she's a researcher,...
Mimi 45:42
Yeah, she's a botanist, isn't she?
Jordan 45:44
Yeah! And she loves plants. I think...I think reading and following more people that are just passionate about nature is another place to start, cause I don't know, I feel like I...she had a quote actually that I think really stems through to all of this “People can't understand the world as a gift unless someone shows them how”. And I think for a lot of us, we don't see nature as a gift. Like we don't feel gratitude towards it and like telling some people to do it kind of without help is often hard and why I think a lot of people struggle, but like she said, sometimes you just needed to hear how to be better. That was a good message.
Mimi 46:35
Totally!
Jordan 46:36
On the idea. Yeah. This gave me a lot to think about.
[outro]
Mimi 46:42
Thanks for listening to this episode of Imperfect Eco-Hero. Stay connected with us through our instagram @Imperfect_ecohero or email us at imperfectecohero@gmail.com. If you want to learn more about our podcast or see resources related to this episode, visit our website imperfectecohero.com
