The Power Of Story-Telling with Linh Nguyen
[intro music] Jordan 0:01
What most people don't realize is that storytelling is part of the solution to the climate crisis. We have the facts, we have the knowledge, we even have the solutions. But if we want people to gain awareness of how their actions are going to be shaping our future, we need to rely on a new way of telling those stories. Which is why we're so excited for this first guest in our series, one who is going to show us and teach us why stories are so effective for learning and have the power to not only influence people, but inspire them as well.
Jordan 0:43
Hey, this is Jordan.
Mimi 0:44
And this is Mimi.
Jordan 0:45
And welcome to the Imperfect Eco-Hero podcast.
Mimi 0:48
The series that connects community, normalizes imperfections and empowers heroes.
[end of intro music]
Jordan 0:58
Hey, everyone. Welcome back. You may be wondering who our first official guest speaker is today. And it's someone who is, you know, near and dear to my heart, who has been an inspiration since the moment I met her, and her name is Linh Nguyen. Linh is a Vietnamese-Canadian writer who specializes in #OwnVoices, children's literature, and creative non-fiction. She's working on her debut middle-grade fantasy novel, and is currently represented by Emmy Nordstrom Higdon, of Westwood Creative Artists. She's passionate about storytelling and creating communities for underrepresented artists in mainstream media. Linh also works as a freelance consultant, and a workshop facilitator. Her classes focus on the intersection between writing and self-reflection, you can find more about those classes and any of her work at linhsnguyen.com.
Linh Nguyen 1:52
I'm so excited! And thank you for having me.
Jordan 1:56
When Mimi and I were kind of discussing who should even be our first guest, we had to really think about what our goal was for the podcast, because, you know, the facts are not enough for people anymore to become aware of climate change. People don't really believe or relate to figures, data, or even graphs; we need to get their full attention. And we need to make them unders...understand the problem and understand the solutions, like we need to create a good story. And so what better place to start than with one of the best storytellers I know. So let's get into it. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself then?
Linh Nguyen 2:31
Yeah, absolutely. So I have lived a number of places. I have a very interesting first 11 years of my life. Born in Hanoi, that's the capital of Vietnam. And I grew up in four cities by the time I was 11. So we lived in Tokyo for a bit in Japan. And then Ithaca, which is in New York, the state of New York, and then we emigrated to Toronto when I was 11. So it was a lot of moving around. And I think a lot of relying on stories to pull me through some of the most challenging parts of it.
Jordan 3:08
That's so interesting that you distinctly remember stories helping you through those challenging times. Do you know why you felt drawn to stories,
Linh Nguyen 3:20
I think what a lot of it came down to was in grade six, which is the year we immigrated to Toronto, which is very challenging year, a lot of changes. What got me through a lot was I read over 200 books that year, and it was the need to escape and to stay in stories and to be something else. And I think when, when we grow up our relationships with stories and books change. But as a kid, I think a lot of people can relate to belonging to escape to magical place or just to escape, like, the everyday life. So I would say like, that's one way that stories helped me in terms of all the changes in the moves. But also when we moved from New York back to Hanoi, Vietnam. That was also a fairly difficult transition and a lot of those books kept me in touch with the culture of North America. And I felt like I was still able to grow up a little bit in North America and during those years where I was physically in Vietnam, because I was keeping very up-to-date with a lot of the stories that make up childhood here.
Jordan 4:33
That's so interesting. That's an interesting looking, looking at it like did you actively want to kind of keep up with North American stories? Like, did you find when you lived here, you enjoyed it more that, like, going back to Hanoi? Like, I don't know. You didn't feel like he belonged anymore? Like I'm curious what like, wanting to keep up with stories in this? Yeah.
Mimi 4:56
Yeah.
Linh Nguyen 4:57
Well, I don't I don't know if I was explicit. About that, I mean, I was also eight. So I don't think I have the words at the time. That's great what that meant. But I 100% do feel that at the time, I was missing a lot of things that...about my life in Ithaca. And the stories were a way for me to feel a bit more seen and a bit more familiar, because I spent kindergarten through grade three in New York, which are pretty fundamental years, learning to read and write. So I was missing a lot of the basic skills of Vietnamese education, which meant that there's always...I mean, this is the thing about being an immigrant and the thing about living between cultures, you never fully fit in one place or another. And the stories helped me escape and find where I wanted to be in that moment. And then later on, and this only happened many years later, to make more of my own identity from those little pieces cobbled together.
Mimi 6:08
Did you find that you were drawn to like certain genres, or stories or certain themes, or it was just anything and everything you could put your hands on.
Linh Nguyen 6:17
I read pretty diversely, but I definitely had a favourite. So I as a kid, and still am, I mean, this is my genre that I write, I’m really into portal fantasies, which is the type of fantasy where someone starts out in the regular world. Usually it's our regular world, and then goes through some kind of a portal, say a wardrobe, and then ends up in a different magical place. So a lot of stories do follow that format, like Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, and I would say those were my favorite growing up.
Mimi 6:55
That's so interesting, because it's like several layers of escapism, right there. Right, like you're escaping into a book and then the book is escaping into a new world.
Linh Nguyen 7:04
Yeah, for sure. And I think I probably related to that, on some level in terms of—
Mimi 7:10
Yeah.
Linh Nguyen 7:11
moving between places.
Jordan 7:13
But that's also interesting in the sense that you also then have a way to get back to, like, with most, at least fantasy books, you're...you're kind of just stuck in one universe, but I guess with the ones that you're talking about, you have the option to go back. I wonder if that says something too, like you...like as much as you did want to escape into maybe different stories, like you did want to come back in the end like you...I don't know, I don't know if that makes any sense.
Linh Nguyen 7:41
For sure. For sure. And like, it took me a long time to get there. I think that the coming back took probably until late teens/University before the...that return started to interest me when I was a kid, it was just like, get the heck out of there. And I...you know, I think that's something a lot of...a lot of people can relate to. But I did—
Jordan 8:04
Totally!
Linh Nguyen 8:04
—do my...my undergrad thesis on portal fantasies, so returns and exits and crossing between worlds is very much what I studied and very much my jam.
Jordan 8:17
Interesting.
Mimi 8:17
Yeah, that's so fascinating. Do you think that, um, your journeys through, through all these books helped fostered your connection with nature? Or do you think you found that somewhere else?
Linh Nguyen 8:30
I think it definitely helped. Yeah, I know, a lot of the stories that...that I was drawn to, including Narnia, I think feature very, very rich landscapes. That said, I think my...my connection with nature was formed more in the places where I got to play and grow up as a kid because I know that most of my life...most of my time was spent in large cities. So like I grew up in Tokyo and Hanoi, Toronto, very big cities.
Mimi 9:09
Yeah.
Linh Nguyen 9:10
Like my best memories of childhood are still in nature. And I think, you know, that's something that I've heard a lot when talking to other people too. So for me that was taking a boat out to Halong Bay with my family, for example, which is a bay, not too far from the capital Hanoi. And we...on my birthdays, would take a boat out and spend the weekend on the water or swimming in the ocean. So those are more of my memories in...in terms of nature, and then the exception to the large city, uh, trends was Ithaca, New York which is where we lived for a few years. It's a very small town, it's where Cornell is, but most of it is just very idyllic. And so I spent my summers waiting in the creek in front of my house and my teacher had horses on her ranch that she let us come ride and then watching the starlings migrate on summer nights. And I think those are always...when I look back on my childhood and the moments that stand out the most, that's...those are the moments that come to mind.
Mimi 10:20
So how would you describe your current relationship with nature?
Linh Nguyen 10:25
I would like there to be more of it.
Mimi 10:28
Yeah.
Linh Nguyen 10:30
I think I would like to, eventually, I don't know, it's a little hard because I do like a lot of the comforts of being in a big city. And I think cultural diversity is a big reason for that, like I don't, I would love to have my children grow up by the ocean, for example. But I think a lot of small towns by the ocean are not as...as culturally diverse. It's sometimes the large cities where they're where there's a lot of opportunities, culturally and artistically, that don't have a lot of access to nature otherwise, and I would like to go on more camping trips, I started horseback riding, not too long ago, but with all of these activities, like it is...it is really hard how people don't usually have cottages or things that they can just zip out to, or like ski trips and such are a big privilege. So that's not something that I think is necessarily realistic, or something I've grown up with, and am used to. So I would say I would like to have nature in my life more, but I'm not quite sure how to balance that out in a financially secure way.
Jordan 11:58
That makes sense, you know, escaping to nature is, is, is a privilege.
Mimi 12:03
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I would love...I would love if you expanded on that a little bit, the way that being in nature and connecting to nature is a privilege and in what ways you've, you've observed that or, or experienced that.
Linh Nguyen 12:20
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, with the pandemic this year, I think it's been more obvious than ever, because—
Mimi 12:25
Totally!
Linh Nguyen 12:25
— a lot of people do long for that now, like we...we don't have other places [laughs] to go. So nature with a few people is kind of the ideal. But I think it's been really obvious who has a cottage that they can go to, or who is able to book camping trips and feel comfortable with that. And that's not something I grew up with. So like I don’t know anything about camping, even though the idea of it is interesting, and I'm trying to learn more, but it's...it's not something that I, as...as a Vietnamese immigrant, had a lot of exposure to growing up. And I think because of...because of capitalism, like, access to nature has become very much a privilege and especially in settler colonial nations, like the US or Canada, where land was stolen and nature is now very much commoditized. So like portaging, camping, skiing, cottage country, like that's all the language of fairly rich white people. And I think it's really important that we...we increase access to those natural spaces, because then everyone can get a chance to meet their own relationships with the Earth. There's, there's one quote that I really like, that kind of relates to this by George Eliot. And she says, this from Mill on the Floss so she says, "we could not have loved the earth so much, if we had no childhood in it, if it was not for the earth where the same flowers came up every spring that we use to gather with our tiny fingers".
Mimi 14:13
I love that.
Linh Nguyen 14:14
Yeah, it's just, it's, it's very beautifully put, definitely. And that doesn't mean like, you know, you have to be in nature to be able to appreciate the world and like want to save the planet. But I think everyone should get to make those memories like everyone should get to be by the seaside if they want to. And it helps us to fall in love with the world and helps us to know our own place in it and define our own story and our own relationships to the land. So I think it's also really important to have moments of joy to draw on when we talk about climate and because so often now it's like, a lot of doom and gloom, which you know, is the way it is and that's...that's accurate, and I'm not saying we shouldn't present the facts. But I think that moments of joy are also very important in activism. And I think everyone should get to make those memories with the earth.
Mimi 15:11
What kind of, like, role does nature play in your stories?
Linh Nguyen 15:16
The novel I'm working on right now is a children's book. It's middle-grade fantasy. And as with a lot of children's books, nature does come to life in it, and nature has a voice. So I think we've seen this since the beginning of the time, right? Like, we're dyads, and triads and water spirits, and all those things come in. And I think we see that across cultures as well from like Greek mythology to, I know in Vietnamese mythology very much so. So it's, it's similar to that I would say, in my work, where the trees do have a voice, and the water does have a voice, and it can take revenge on people, and it can be kind to people. And there's instances of both that are very personified. What childrens lit is. So, that's been an interesting...it's been an interesting thing to play with.
Mimi 16:15
Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. Do you ever struggle with like, the idea of like, how should water talk? Or how should the trees talk or behave? Or does that kind of come naturally to you.
Linh Nguyen 16:25
So far, some of those things have come naturally, though, it does take me a bit of time to sit with their perspective. So I think some of, like their physical descriptions and stuff just come to my mind as they are. But I do need to like, sit back and think about how would water react in this situation? And in what instances would trees be forgiving versus vengeful?
Jordan 16:56
It would be interesting to almost gauge how the different generations view nature, especially this Generation Z, and like the rise of technology, and just the lack of them being outdoors, like I wonder if that's impacted how they see nature, so they rely so heavily on these stories?
Mimi 17:15
Well, I mean, I think that's...that's another reason why it's important for outdoor spaces to be accessible, right, because there's only so much you can learn in the classroom. And it's one thing to learn about climate and nature through facts and figures, and it's another thing to actually form your own relationship with it and actually get to be out and see things. I know, when I...when I grew up, like, I was very fortunate, because I had, I went to a very good school in Ithaca. And our teachers had us, like, raise beetles from when they were larva or eggs actually, and like, watch them go through all the cycles of life. And that still sticks in my head today. And a lot of our learning experiences were very hands-on. Like, she brought her homing pigeons to class. And like we were out—
Mimi 18:16
No way, that's so cool!
Jordan 18:17
That's so neat!
Linh Nguyen 18:19
Very, very cool. I learned the word iridescent when she pointed at a pigeon's neck and was like, that's, that's what that means. I think there's, like, very cool learning experiences that can happen outside of traditional classroom. And that's why it's also so important for kids and adults to be able to experience nature on their own terms.
Mimi 18:42
Why do you think there's been less accessibility to nature? And especially with kids, I guess?
Linh Nguyen 18:51
Um...capitalism? [laughs]
Mimi 18:53
Yeah.
Jordan 18:54
Yeah, probably systemic racism too.
Linh Nguyen 18:56
Um...and it's really odd that nature's a privilege, right? But I think a lot of it just comes down to the fact that land that was stolen now has a price tag on it, and it favors people who can pay and people do pay for that. And so for BIPOC, for immigrants, for people who do not have the same resources, it's harder to access when you live in a big city, I would say.
Jordan 19:28
I don't know how many of you know this, but there's an actual term for that. And it's called the...the adventure gap. And there's a huge one when it comes to outdoor recreation, because like Linh said, you...you need a certain amount of disposable income and leisure time to be able to do outdoor recreation. And there's tons of research to back this up. One of the research papers that I was reading stated that you know, while black Americans, for example, make up 13% of the US population, they only make up less than 2% of all national park visitors. And that has been because the outdoors have had this long history of exclusion that started with the fact that all national parks were established on public land taken by force from indigenous peoples who were its stewards for generations. But even just within the last 100 years, especially in the US, they have a long history of segregation from 1930, up until 1964, with the Civil Rights Act that there were parks and campsites and picnic areas, even just the stores and all that leading up to parks, were for whites only.
Mimi 20:35
The outdoor community is still a very, very white community, unfortunately.
Jordan 20:42
Did you notice that a lot when you were working in Banff, Mimi?
Mimi 20:45
Oh, yeah. 100% especially among, like, the Canadians, because we did get a lot of international, like, tour buses. So that...that added diversity, but among, like, the Canadian population, the Canadians that were there were definitely white. Yeah, and that's also something I noticed when I'm...when I'm skiing. And yeah, like, it kind of creeps me out, to be honest, because I like, I'm not, especially coming from Toronto, I'm not used to seeing only white people. So when I...whenever I go to a ski hill and, and that's all I'm seeing, like, it's just, it makes me really question like, why is this and...and how can we improve this so that this is a more accessible space?
Jordan 21:28
I wonder if it starts with us being better allies towards people that are BIPOC and from marginalized communities, because I remember reading that many of them don't feel safe in the outdoors, and not because of the animals or, or weather, but because they're one, never represented in nature, and two, the people that often do occupy nature tend to be very white and very privileged. And I was curious, Linh, if you ever felt unsafe in nature or scared?
Linh Nguyen 22:01
Yeah, I mean, I personally wouldn't say that I've been scared. And I think some of that comes from the fact that I'm rarely alone, like I don't ever go out into natural spaces alone. It's something I'm definitely aware of as a woman of color. And I think it's obviously exacerbated or, for example, indigenous women, as we very clearly can see. I would say, I'm very uncomfortable, though.
Jordan 22:36
What Linh's talking about is something called intersectionality. And I know that's become a really hot button word in the environmental community, and for good reason, because it draws attention to these areas where social justice issues overlap, creating almost these nuanced and unique social issues that are often overlooked. And for those of you that don't know, what intersectionality means, or what it is, it was, it's a theoretical framework invented by Kimberlé Crenshaw, for understanding how aspects of a person's social and political identity combined to create different modes of discrimination and privilege. And she explained it really well, when she said, it's not simply that there's a race problem here, or a gender problem here, or a class or an LGBTQ problem here. Many of the times these frameworks are race, what happens to people who are subject to all of these things?
Mimi 23:27
Right. So it's not just like, categorizing different issues, like all of these issues, lead into each other, so.
Linh Nguyen 23:36
Yeah, that's why I mean, I think racial justice is a huge part of climate justice.
Mimi 23:41
Oh, of course, yeah.
Linh Nguyen 23:44
We need to be aware of and talk about when we speak about the climate.
Mimi 23:47
And, yeah, I would love to hear what you think of, like, how access or lack thereof to nature impacts the way someone might understand the climate crisis or the climate movement.
Linh Nguyen 24:03
Um, I think it definitely can, like, just going back to the George Eliot quote at the beginning, it impacts our relationship with it, so we can make it easier for people to build their own understanding of what it means around them. I don't think you have to understand nature well to care about the planet necessarily, either. But everyone can learn about and should learn about it.
Mimi 24:30
Hm hm. Have you ever brought climate change or like the topic of the climate crisis into any of your storytelling?
Linh Nguyen 24:38
Yeah, so the climate movement is not necessarily my forte, but I have very much looked at it from a storytelling perspective, because I think storytelling dominates our worlds and like the way I see it as a writer, so that's something that I've been interested in doing, even if it doesn't come up in my own work all the time.
Jordan 25:00
I'm curious if you can expand on that, like, what have you...what is your opinion on, on the stories or lack thereof in this current climate movement?
Linh Nguyen 25:10
I think that there is a lot more room for joy. In the story telling of the climate movement, I think joyful stories are missing. And if we think about what makes a good story from a marketing perspective, in which the goal is to spur action, I think it's important for people to see the impact, like the why and also to feel good about it. So to be clear, like this doesn't necessarily apply to large corporations, I think different rules apply when we're speaking about corporations. So I think when I'm talking about storytelling in the climate movement, I'm more talking about individuals. And I also don't really mean like, we need to sugarcoat the urgency of the crisis or people to stay positive or passive. But I think there is still more room to put a feel good spin on things, because so much of the movement right now is kind of guilt driven, and it's focused on loss. So it's like telling us what we have to give up. So in terms of foods, like we have to give up meat or almond milk, or avocados, and then there's also fast fashion, flying, like the convenience of buying from big retailers. And I think the mainstream message there has very much been, these are the consequences that you're directly contributing to if you don't give up these things. And that's...that's not to say that I don't agree with those, I think the facts are important, we definitely need that information. But I also think it's been presented in a way that leads to a couple issues. So the guilt drivenness aspect of it, wants to shift blame from large corporations who are infinitely more responsible, so turns people on each other, and like we shouldn't be losing sight of systemic solutions, like the green New Deal. And it also leads to gatekeeping, in the environmental movement, which kind of sounds like, "you can't call yourself an environmentalist, if you eat meat", not...stuff like that, it really disregards the nuances of the issues, in my opinion. So that statement, for example, disregards like food miles, sustainable farming, and ignores potential health reasons, whether physical or mental, because, you know, like, as someone who struggles with eating sometimes, like sometimes it's, it's a win if I put food in my body three times a day, and that is just the base I have to work with sometimes. And with food in particular, I think it also unfairly targets BIPOC communities who have very strong cultural ties to their food, and ignores how pretty much every indigenous nation has lived sustainably for millennia on diverse diets. So I, that's...that's...those are the issues I see with the guilt drivenness, and I think that we could put a bit more of a positive messaging in that storytelling.
Jordan 28:29
I know for myself, I was listening to a podcast and someone had said in it, like, "can you even call yourself an environmentalist if you eat me", and it made me really think and I made a goal for myself in 2020 to go vegan, because that's like, the biggest thing you can do as an individual is to cut out meat, it reduces your carbon footprint by like 50%. That's been advertised literally everywhere by every influencer. And I tried that and I failed at it miserably. And for a lot of reasons that I wasn't actually, like, aware of going in, like I knew I would have a bit of a difficulty because I have an autoimmune disease, ulcerative colitis, which is an inflammatory bowel disease, where I know I can't digest fiber. And as many vegans and vegetarians out there know, most protein alternatives like beans and just everything else has a lot of fiber. So I felt awful all the time. But on top of that, there was like this cultural aspect to that I didn't realize I grew up It...I grew up Italian with the Italian food and as everyone knows, Italian food is like a lot of cheeses, a lot of meats, a lot of just everything and so that also culturally was hard because I couldn't eat with my family any anymore. And so it was this like, weird challenge and I just felt awful all the time. Not just physically, but also like emotionally, too, and it's just never really talked about.
Linh Nguyen 29:46
And I think it's great if people can when you're, like, in a position to and want to, that's...that's wonderful, but I know I also tried going vegetarian for a bit in the fall last year and it did not work out well. Was just not...I felt really bad all the time. And I know some people say the opposite. So it depends on your body. It depends on your...your routine and what works for you. And then culturally as well, like, I'm not going to stop eating pho. [laughs] Yeah, like it's, it's just part of my love language. There's the piece that I wrote back in the fall like that's...that's part of how I communicate with my family. So I'm not gonna give that up. That said, I only eat local meat now. And I eat...I don't eat a lot of meat. And something...another quote that stood out to me by hum...her name is Anne-Marie Bonneau, she's a zero waste chef. She says: "We don't need a handful of people doing Zero Waste perfectly, we need millions doing it imperfectly".
Mimi 30:57
Yeees!
Jordan 30:58
We need them to be imperfect Eco-Heroes! Just going full circle to what we're saying! [singsongy]
Linh Nguyen 31:04
Yeah, and what I would say to that is like to tie it back to storytelling, I think the main message that we should be promoting to individuals, again, not corporations, is to just do what you can like within your financial means within your time constraints within your health restrictions, do what you can. And then to add to that, here are some bonuses to taking those steps. So you can get better quality products that last longer, you can get healthier, better tasting options when it comes to food, it's also like the joy of making food from scratch, like it's really fun baking bread with your family. And then convenience of growing your own herbs or garden, like having a basil plant or having a mint plant, it's been a real game changer for me. There's like lower prices, if you know where to look in the right ways, because it's not, it's not all about the expensive health food aisle in the grocery store. I think that's a big misconception too, when people are like, "eating healthy means, like, shopping from that aisle" like it doesn't it doesn't necessarily mean that like it could have been food boxes of like, you know misshapen tomatoes that would otherwise go to waste. So I think those are big benefits. And then also like, you know, you get more intimacy and connection with the new formed relationships with local businesses, and then we also build a more sustainable world for ourselves, our children and...I think if we promoted those messages, and shared those stories more, then it would would shift it to less guilt driven messaging, and more like, here's what you gain and the pleasures of taking these actions and also do what you can. Because at the end of the day, like, we're individuals from different circumstances, and if one person doesn't find it in themselves to be able to go vegan, like that doesn't mean you're a bad person.
Jordan 33:05
Yeah, for me, it's always hard because I never know if people just need to hear more stories like that. Like, if I just need to, for example, share how hard it was, like having IBD, going vegan 'cause I googled it, I was like, there has to have been someone with my condition who's gone vegan, and I found nothing. And I was like, okay, but how? I don't know if I'm just doing vegan wrong. Like, I don't know, if I'm just doing the whole thing like inaccurately or this is like an actual struggle, like I just don't know if...what needs to happen are more people who do struggle with these things to share, like people who I don't want to say fail because I don't believe going...not going vegan is a failure. But like people who I guess, or like, who struggle with it, or do people just need to know that there are other options. Like it's not just “go vegan!”, it's just like: Hey, try to eat more plant based, like, have like, I don't know, like a tiered system, like, hey, if you can go...cut out all meat. If you can't cut out all meat, like try to reduce it to once a week or if you can't do that, hey, shop at your local X, Y & Z. Hey, if you can't do that, like you [Linh] said, go for the tomatoes that are...that are a little bit more bruised, because like 1/3 of all food, like in grocery stores, get wasted because they...of how they look, even though they taste fine. And like that doesn't cost anyone. Like I just don't know if people just need to see it in some sort of tiered system. But then a tiered system might mean, if I can only do the bottom one does that make me lesser than, like, I just don't know the best way of showcasing that.
Linh Nguyen 34:29
I wouldn't say a tiered system is necessarily the best. But I do think that more stories like the ones you're showcasing are important because people can see different options. So not just that it's the be-all end-all and not...And I think it's important that you share, you know, your personal experience also with suggestions of what else you've done or what else you can do.
Jordan 34:56
And that kind of falls back to what you were saying about that lack of guilt. And just how the media focuses a lot on, on, on...—
Mimi 35:04
—the individual.
Jordan 35:05
Yeah. On the individual and also, yeah, just the loss that you have to kind of give up.
Mimi 35:09
Yeah.
Linh Nguyen 35:10
Yeah. Like think about what you want to gain, and—
Jordan 35:14
Which is never.
Mimi 35:15
I mean, that's a huge part of, like, the narrative around the environmental movement, just the idea that it's constant losses, but there are so many gains.
Linh Nguyen 35:23
There's so many gains. Yeah. And I do wish that we highlighted the joy of that more and could talk about like, you know, how fun it is, to grow your own stuff, if you have the means to do that, and how to do that on a low budget, and...You know, small ways that that people can shift their diet that isn't completely drastic, whether that's simply shopping local, or cutting red meat out, or only eating meat when it comes to like, certain dishes. So, you know, there's lots of different options, there's a whole range. And I think that...I mean, yeah, I think the lack of gatekeeping is really important in getting people to just do whatever little things they can to improve both their own lives, as well as the world. But I think from a marketing and storytelling perspective, the way we convey that message to individuals do...does matter. And I, I'm also, like, very aware of why, you know, telling an indigenous person that they have to go vegan, like, it's just not something that I ever think is okay.
Mimi 36:37
No...
Jordan 36:38
Because they've been, they've been living sustainably, like eating meat and doing all those things for generations up until we got here.
Linh Nguyen 36:48
That's not, that's not the be-all end-all of it. And I also think, you know, for people who are living in poverty, for whom they already have to make very hard choices in everyday life, about what to buy at the grocery store, like adding additional layers to that plate, because that's, that's not something that I love, either. So I think that's where it's important to tell people to like, take what makes your life easier and makes your life better. And some things you have to leave. And that's okay.
Jordan 37:23
And that's kind of what intersectionality is, and why it's so important, not just in general, but in environmentalism as well, because we can't have an environmental movement that doesn't truly advocate for not just the planet, but for all people and all people within even marginalized communities as well, we need to take that intersectional lens, to then take a deeper look into how these environmental issues are compounded by other factors and other social justice issues. And they create these nuances and levels within the environmental movement. But that's kind of now where it gets a little bit tricky. And where I think this climate movement has failed in terms of how it's told this story is one, it's kind of left out intersectionality, but at the same time intersectionality does, for a lot of people, even for myself, made the problem almost seem bigger. Although I guess these problems were always around, we're just now having that in the forefront. But I just don't know the best way for a lot of people to not feel overwhelmed by how big this problem is, how intricate this climate justice movement is, while also still being inspired and hopeful that they can then do something about it.
Linh Nguyen 38:47
I mean, I think the last thing I would say about that is that it's important to feature more stories from diverse people, because I think a lot of the faces we see at the forefront of climate movements are white. And that's not to say that people at the front of the climate movement are white, because I think a lot of BIPOC. And, you know, obviously, indigenous nations have been at the forefront of this for forever. But I think that mainstream media needs to highlight their perspectives more and prioritize their voices, people who come from low income backgrounds, and know how to speak to their communities in the best way because each community is unique, like I can't speak to ev...for everyone either. And like this is only going to resonate with some people, which is why it's important for a lot of different people to be able to speak to people that they know and understand.
Jordan 39:47
Do you think more positive change will come from that when people can then relate to what's being said
Linh Nguyen 39:53
Relate to what's being said in uh...in a realistic and positive way. Like if I, I think if we have people who are like “I am from this neighborhood, and here are some small ways that I have changed my behavior, and here are some small ways that you can do it, too”. I think that would resonate to specific people who are familiar with their circumstances and know...Yeah, so I think more targeted messaging and positive stories from people who are aware of their communities.
Jordan 40:28
You pretty much just nailed what we’re hoping to do on the Imperfect Eco-Hero and showcasing more stories like yours so people can find their community within this movement and just feel like they can make a difference.
Mimi 40:44
Well thank you so much Linh for being here, it’s been a pleasure to talk to you!
Jordan 40:50
Hm hm, and when you say you don’t know a lot about climate change I—
Mimi 40:53
Yeah you know a lot!
Jordan 40:53
—I feel like you know a lot, I feel like you’re definitely one of those perfect Eco Hero that uh—
Linh Nguyen 40:58
I am...definitely not! [laughs] I don’t know—
Mimi 41:01
Your perspective was so...incredible and..
Jordan 41:05
I think it’s eye opening and it’s kinda very refreshing to hear.
Mimi 41:10
I loved it, so thank you so much!
Linh Nguyen 41:11
It’s an honour to be speaking with you and I’m sure we will talk very soon!
Jordan 41:19
Like I said at the beginning, if you want to read more about Linh and her work you can go check all of it out at linhsnguyen.com.
[outro]
Mimi 41:34
Thanks for listening to this episode of Imperfect Eco-Hero. Stay connected with us through our instagram @Imperfect_ecohero or email us at imperfectecohero@gmail.com. If you want to learn more about our podcast or see resources related to this episode, visit our website imperfectecohero.com
