How to be a Hypocrite and an Eco-hero with Sarah JS Part II
Jordan 0:00
Welcome back, Imperfect Eco-Hero listeners to part two of our conversation with the incredible climate writer, human rights lawyer and executive director of facilitator of the Good Grief Network Sarah J. S. In part one, we delved in deep into Sarah's journey with her relationship with nature, and how she's understood her own emotions and eco-anxieties within her intersectional environmentalism and activism. In part two, we pick up on our conversation of what activism embodied justice and well-being actually looks like, and not only how we need to work on defining it within ourselves, but how we create that space for others to share their story too. As the somatics coach Selin Nurgün once said, “The climate emergency is happening to our nervous systems”. And we delve deep into that idea a lot more with Sarah, to better understand why jumping into action, lacking in awareness of our body, especially its triggers and trauma responses, can easily turn our activism into a cycle of burnout and shame, because we've all been there.
[intro music]
Jordan 1:09
Hey, this is Jordan!
Mimi 1:10
And this is Mimi.
Jordan 1:12
And welcome to the Imperfect Eco-Hero podcast.
Mimi 1:15
The series that connects community, normalizes imperfections and empowers heroes.
[end of intro music]
Mimi 1:23
I think humans are taught to be very solution oriented. And so when you're faced with a problem, like if somebody is talking to you about a hard day or a life problem that they're having, even if it's not environmental, as the recipient of a story being told, you want to, like, give them solutions, you want to fix their problem and…And sometimes, as the person that's telling the story, all you need is to tell a story. You don't need a solution, you just need to tell that story.
Sarah 1:50
I think like, you're right, that sometimes sharing the story is very powerful, and I think that's why the Good Grief model works is because we're not solution oriented. We don't actually think there is a single solution to climate crisis. That would be amazing if someone has that, like, consider the source, you know, because that would be…unheard of. And so I think that… yeah, there's something about not fixing people. And…and I do this a lot with my friends. So my friends, like you said, when someone comes to you with a story, you're just like, I need…I love this person so much, I need to help them feel better. And I've started asking, “do you want to be heard or do you want help solving a problem?”. And inviting that question in creates so much spaciousness between two people, because what a gift it is for someone to be asked that. And then what a gift to be able to say what you want, what a gift for the other person to not be in their head the whole time you're hearing this story, wondering if you're going to be able to come up with a solution to help your friend. You know, it's like a gift for both people just, like, creates a relaxation. And I think that that's, like, the key piece of what makes Good Grief meetings so helpful for people and heal— the healing modality so useful because we don't offer solutions. And because they're non judgmental spaces, right? So we might all have our judgments that come out when we're in a Good Grief meeting and hear something that someone else shares. But because we don't cross talk that doesn't come across. And I think in my life, I didn't tell people that I was judging them, but of course, they could feel that. Because, we do! We can feel the energy of people's judgment. And maybe we don't know how our faces look, when we see our friends make certain decisions. Or maybe people presumed my judgment because of how often I would post things on social media. You know, I didn't use Amazon for like, five years or something. I was very, very proud of that. And I'd, like, keep account of, like, [sounding proud]“Oh, it's another year, like, June 11! Another year I haven't used Amazon, y'all!” you know, like… [laughs] And, and actually, even today, I was asking for some home improvement tips from my cousin. And she said, “You're gonna cringe at this, but I got a lot of things on Amazon”. And I said, “I don't cringe at those— I don't cringe at that anymore. Like, you know, I might not buy from there. But it doesn't stir something in me”. And I had to do— And that's not because I'm like, no— I'm, like, free of judgment. It's because I'm practicing every day empathy. And I think that's the actual antidote to judgment. It's not like pretending that we don't judge, because we do. But once we see other people's stories, and really hear them and feel empathy for what someone went through, we see how close it is to our own story, our own life, and we learn to forgive other people and forgive ourselves. And I think that just kind of softens the whole thing.
Mimi 4:34
I think what you were saying about judging yourself and judging others, whether that's environmentally or not, I think that's something that everyone can relate to. And just you've talked about this, like, this journey of healing, and especially in the last two years of your life, you've really changed in that regard. And I would love to know some of the advice that you would give to folks that relate to your journey and feel that they've become more judgmental or less accessible to their friends since beginning their journey of environmentalism. And also, what advice would you give to someone on the opposite end of that, like the person that's receiving the judgment? Like, are there any words or phrases of compassion that can be used in these, like, situations and that can be brought up in conversations among friends?
Sarah 5:19
Hmm, great question. I think the first thing I'll say is that — and this goes for a lot of relationships, but — relationships where we’re asking someone to be a certain way that they're not yet, like, we can't! You know, you can only be where you are. At Good Grief, “we say we welcome people wherever they are in their journey”. If you're not an environmentalist, and you want to sit in a 10 step meeting with us, you're welcome. You know, you can't scapegoat portions of the population. You can't use hate to **** you, but you're allowed to be wherever you are in the journey. Climate denialists are welcome. You're going to be confronted with a lot of ideas that might change your belief system, and we're not going to protect you against them. But you're welcome here. And I think that that has been an enormous part of my healing and forgiveness journey, and self acceptance and societal acceptance journey is that you can't, you can't get someone further on the path than they're at! You're not going to do it with your words, you know, what might have to happen as a climate emergency in their region. You know, they're…they’re... And this is why storytelling is so important to movements, is…a bunch of climate facts have never made anyone be an environmentalist. It is the stories. It's what we hear. It's what happens to us and people we love and friends. And now with social media, you can see videos of people suffering all over the world, and that stirs something in our human bodies. And it's stories that we see that change our behavior. And so if you have a friend that maybe isn't as far along on the journey, as you, maybe they haven't seen the stories that you've seen. And maybe a way that you can expose them is through storytelling, maybe there's a video or a movie that really touched you and it's not expressly about climate grief. It's not a documentary about climate change, but it's a story where some person has lost the woods in their backyard, and the experience that they have going through that is so powerful that it helps your friends see part of your grief that they hadn't seen. And it makes your friend think like, “wow, like, how much close— Like I had no idea Sarah felt this grief, how much closer might she feel to me if I show up with a metal straw next time”. And it starts to create emotional connections between action maybe what we call “climate action”. Maybe it is an action to bring your own cup. But when my mom, who has not been an environmentalist for most of her life, but when she brings a cup, a reusable cup to Starbucks, I am…I feel something in my heart. You know, I feel like she saw something that I have known to be true, and she's validating the fear I felt and the ways that I've been making behavioral changes, and she's seeing me, it's like a Lionheart-to-Heart. It's like the quickest radio signal. It's just like, “Wow, you saw something in me, and it's important to you to make a change to respect that”. And so I think storytelling is really important. And if you don't have a good story to tell through someone else, tell your own story! And it doesn't— like we said at the beginning of this podcast, it doesn't have to be a linear story. What are the times that you felt deep, acute grief in your life? And did that looked like a grief that someone else could understand? Do you know someone that's lost someone important to them? And might they be able to understand the way that this grief lives in your stomach or in your heart, or wa—, the way that anxiety overwhelms you and makes you tighten your jaw, might they have also experienced some anxiety in their life. And it's not too much of a jump to understand why you would experience anxiety in a warming planet, you know, with the hottest temperatures ever recorded. The hottest temperature ever recorded on Earth was just recorded an hour from where I'm living right now. Ever! 130 degrees Fahrenheit! In Death Valley, National Park here in the US. These are real feelings. And I think if you tell people your stories, as opposed to like, "Hey, why are you using that cup?" Or like, "go green"? Or "go vegan"? What does that mean? Does it mean that maybe when you see animals enslaved and tortured, that it makes you feel scared that that could happen to humans one day again? And…or maybe if you see an animal body on a plate, does that make you feel sad? Because you know that that was someone's child? And maybe someone's mother, you know? And like is that…are those things that you can connect to like, how do you reach someone's heart? And I think that that's the most important thing. And for people that are on the other side of receiving maybe criticism or judgment. I just want to say that I see you. I see that you're doing your best. And I know that you're doing your best, because we're all doing our best. And if I look at a friend of mine, and I have a judgment, “oh, they're not doing their best”, it's because I'm lacking empathy. Maybe it's because I feel like I'm not doing my best and I'm projecting. But if someone's not doing a “good job”, at being an environmentalist or an anti racist, or feminists or whatever, but good family member, if they're not doing what you perceive as a good job, it's still their best, it's still the best that person can do that day it with the conditions that they're under, that you might not know that much about, you know? And I think that if you are on the receiving end of criticism, I want you to know that if you were my friend, and I felt judgmental or critical toward you, it wouldn't be because I thought you were a bad person. It would be because I was working so many hours and spending so much emotional, physical time and energy to help heal this world, that I was just devastated that someone I loved wasn't part of that mission with me. It wouldn't be because I thought you were bad or irresponsible, or…or harmful it would be I would know that you just weren't where I'm at. And I just think that anyone who feels judged should try to remember that the people that are doing the judging sometimes, have been so burnt out and emotionally devastated by the crisis that we're living through that it's sometimes all we can do to just try to grab people on board with us. And sometimes that looks aggressive. Sometimes we're screaming in the streets, but we're just trying to get people to feel what we feel so that we have a chance at a Livable Future. It's because we want your kid — I don't care if you recycle or not — I want your kids to have a life on this planet. I want your kids to be able to dream a future for their kid and their grandkid. And I don't care what actions you're taking, because I know you're doing your best. But if you feel judgment from me, it's because I'm so desperate at this point to try to bring people within this vision of mine, that I'm screaming as loud as I can. I'm trying everything I can to get people on board. And sometimes it looks like screaming. And sometimes it looks like compassion. And sometimes it looks like healing work, but sometimes I'm just flailing because I feel so helpless in this world, and it doesn't always come out the best way, you know? And so, I don't think these should be binary stories of good people doing things and bad people not doing things, or climate activists and climate deniers, like, we're all doing the best we can, and we're all at really different stages of our education as well. So sharing resources with people sharing healing modalities with people sharing your own story and the stories of other people you love. And telling your friends explicitly, like, “I'm not saying this because I'm upset or angry with you. I'm saying this because I think that there is something that I've learned that you might be impacted by if you learned it too. And I want to share it with you. Take it or leave it, but like, are you willing to at least learn something new with me?” You know, these are opportunities for connection. And I think unfortunately, when we embrace perfectionism and judgment, we use our opportunities that could be connected and full of…yeah, heart-centered, you know, information sharing, we use them instead, as ways to separate us and divide each other and point fingers and create an other. And that's a…that's a fallacy. There are no others here, you know.
Mimi 13:23
So throughout the conversation, we've talked a lot about, like, shame, and perfectionism. But you've also mentioned quite a bit about forgiveness, and this idea of reclaiming hypocrisy, and I think that's so beautiful. How does this culture of forgiveness and reclaiming hypocrisy break free from that cycle of shame and perfectionism?
Sarah 13:43
I think we need to start by accepting new modes of thought into a lot of what we do. Yeah, it's, like, pretty trendy to use the term decolonized, but I mean, it literally, like a lot of the messaging that our western culture is based on, is from a white male enlightenment perspective in Europe, you know, and those messages evolved to create, I mean, a lot of -isms and an entire system of white supremacy that has become global. But those systems were created, and the culture around them was created to serve industrialization at some point. And so the messaging, it's impossible to take apart industry or like to, you know, disentangle or industrialization from cultural narratives that demand perfectionism. I mean, you know, when people were working in the 40s, right? Like you could smoke inside because it made people more productive. Caffeine is legal, and marijuana isn't federally in the US, because one is productive and one makes people lay around and think about changing the system, you know? Like that's…that's part of it. And so I think breaking free from some of these cultural narratives is not like a nice thing that we say it's something we actually have to practice. And like, one invitation I would give to any of your listeners is like, the next time you're in the middle of a really hard workday, and you have so much to do, and you are so overwhelmed, you're like, “I wish I could just nap”. See if you can nap. Like, what would happen if you didn't do those things? Like, to actually create cultures of forgiveness. Because what would it mean, if you decided to nap, right? You would be telling your body like, “I love you, you need rest. If you don't finish this thing, right now I'm gonna forgive you. It's gonna be okay.” This is not the most important thing, finishing this project, the most important thing is your vessel and the entire spirit and mind and body, heart, gut brains that live within it, and caring for ourselves. And if we do that internally, we can do that externally more easily. Like, for example, I have a really hard time biting my cuticles. And it is this tiny way that I harm myself every day. And I'm letting— I'm telling myself in my mind, “it's okay to harm myself a little bit”. So what does that mean out in the world? Does that mean I think it's okay to harm everyone a little bit. Because until I tell myself that I don't want to harm myself, I want to only live in peace with myself, I only want to engage in behaviors that are peaceable and compassionate. If that's my value set, that's the value set by me externally with the world too, not just internally. And that's what I think we mean when we say we deconstruct cultural narratives to come into new relationships of forgiveness. And I mean, an acceptance of hypocrisy, right? Like, we have to start honoring things that are anti-capitalist — and that's like a, you know, very blanket term — but we have to start hon…honoring things that are not inherently productive, but bring us joy and pleasure. I think that's a huge piece of it. We— you know, joy, well pleasure is inherently unproductive, usually. And I mean, it makes us plea—, you know, I mean, we can think about a million ways that we can feel pleasure, but usually afterwards, we just want to, like, sink and melt into ourselves and our loved ones and the experience we're having. And we don't think about how we can achieve something or produce something in those moments. And we feel real contentment and joy. And it's the same, like you said, rest being radical Jordan, you know? Like, resting is radical, it is anti-capitalist. And we are not taught to rest because that wouldn't be productive. But the more that we allow those edges of our dominant culture to soften, like, the more we…if I knew that my colleague was taking a nap, and that that was okay, I wouldn't be so judgmental, that the thing didn't get done. And I think they're just we can see them in our real lives with people we interact with. There are expectations we have for everyone's productivity, and they're leading us to present perfectionism, to perform this perfectionism to everyone so that we're not the odd person out that's not doing what we're supposed to be doing, you know? And I think that if we want to, like, break free from the kind of chokehold of perfectionism in the climate movement… like, a good step would just be to start identifying as hypocrites, you know [laughs] like, that's easy. Like, can we make that a trendy identity? Post hypocrisy? Like, it's positive now! [laughs] Like, I…I wish that I had something to offer that I felt like it was like, bigger than ourselves, but I actually, like, don't think we can break free of it until we're doing that internal work. And that internal work is really hard, you know? Like, it's really hard to forgive ourselves when we don't do what we— what culture told us was a good job. And what we've come to believe is a good job, you know? So I don't have a great answer to that other than starting to embrace really nonproductive, joyful experiences that center connection.
Jordan 19:17
Do you have any examples, I guess, for people to...to...that might want to have some ideas of ways that they can do some of those things.
Sarah 19:26
Sure. Um...
Jordan 19:27
Or like, what works for you? Because, like you said, sharing stories and sharing ideas might not work for everyone, but it could be a good starting place for someone to try.
Sarah 19:36
Totally, that's a great point. So I use a lot of DBT skills. That's call— Dialectical Behavior Therapy. And it's this type of really practical skills-based therapy to help you manage distress, so like, the distress tolerance skills, and also radical acceptance skills. And a lot of those skills ask— some…some of them asked for what's called an opposite action. And so, I engage in a lot of opposite actions — I should have grabbed my book, I have it here, and I could read some of them to you — but um… opposite action is sometimes like, for example, if I feel um…like, anger, an opposite action would be compassionate. So if I feel a lot of anger rising in myself without something, a deadline, I didn't meet, let's say? An opposite action is compassion. And so sometimes I'll sit down and set a timer for five minutes, and I'll journal about all the things that I loved that I did that day, all the things I feel really proud of that I did that day. And I'm in those moments, very literally rewiring neural pathways that hav— are very strong because for most of my life, those pathways firing are like “You didn't finish your deadline? You're a bad worker! Didn't finish? Bad!” Like, and it's just “bad, bad, bad”, you can like…that's the message at the bottom of it. And that becomes a negative core belief about myself that if I don't do work on time, I am bad, you know? And so starting to interrupt those messages. And again, like the nap is an example that I think is tangible for a lot of people. Can you take a nap in the middle of the workday? On Good Grief Network’s Instagram, I've been offering some of these ideas too. Can you interrupt your workday in the middle of the day and go for a walk without your phone, or leave it in a pocket on silent or something? And can you go just have a non productive 10 minutes outside? And if you absolutely need to hold on to some productivity piece of it, like you're getting vitamin D. Okay. You know, but like some, what can you do? And then, another…another example would be to sit down with a friend and say, “I've been feeling judgment come up in me, and some of it's geared toward myself, and some of it's geared toward other people. Can I talk to you about it? Like, can you sit in a non judgmental space with me? And can I tell you about my judgment? I don't want you to say anything in response. But I just want to get it off my chest”. Maybe that conversation is with the person you're judging. Like, “I don't want to judge you anymore. I love you so much, but this thing is coming up. And I find that when we get off the phone, it, like, lives in me for like 10 minutes, and I find myself thinking about all the things I wish I'd said to you. And can we j— can I just tell you what they are? And…and I don't want you to think I'm judging you right now. I'm trying to come out on the other side of it and maybe to even it out? Well, you told me a few ways you've judged me too. And we can just get this off our chest, you know?”, things like that. Or doing something that you know — buying flip flops from Walmart — doing something you know [laughs] is not good for the environment, and like, looking at yourself in the mirror with the thing next to you and looking in your own eyes and saying “I forgive you. You bought Walmart flip flops today, and I forgive you”. And you're going to feel another part of you rise that's like, [judgmental voice] “Oh, should I really forgive myself—” like, you'll feel that part and you…you'll hear another voice come into the conversation. You might hear five other voices come into the conversation like, “Well, we did this this once but we're not going to do it again”. You can hear all of the other things, but just keep on until all of those voices just say “can you step back for a second, can you stepped back I'm having a conversation with my true self right now. I don't need you here”. Just look in your eyes in the mirror and forgive yourself over and over and they seem silly these things. But these things are what actually practically deconstruct these systems that live in us that make us perfectionist and make us judgmental. And they're going to be a million companies that want to sell you something that tell you “if you journal these things every day at the end, you won't be judgmental” / “if you go through this $6,000 2 months course you're not going to be judgmental”,... You know what's going to make you not judgmental is looking in your own eyes and forgiving yourself, sometimes. Even when everything about you cringes at the idea. And it's those little efforts. And, you know, I used to have a…a…alarm set for noon every day. And I'd set an alarm for one minute and I would just journal every day, everything I loved about myself. Like, just, and…and there's something that changes in us, you know, and I just actually am someone who really believes— I don't believe like we do all this internal work and we forget about the outer world, I believe the only way we can actually help our outer worlds is to help our inner world so that we're not performing being like non judgmental, but inside we're having our thoughts. And so every…almost every piece of advice I'm going to offer comes back to the self and the work. And not everyone wants to take 30 minutes a day to do this work or five minutes a day to do this work. Because it's not easy, and it's amongst us to be really uncomfortable with ourselves. But I just think there's no shortcut, you know?
Jordan 24:31
This idea that the mainstream environmental movement thus far often capitalizes on this notion that everything we're feeling from anxiety to grief can be remedied by action is something Sarah, Mimi and I ruminated on a lot after our first conversation. It was something we wanted to delve in deeper to better understand and share our thoughts on this phenomenon. So for the first time since we started doing this podcast, Sarah felt empowered and suggested having us meet again to discuss more. So this next part of the episode is that second discussion.
Sarah 25:05
It's so…I was just talking about this this morning, and actually it was...it...this entire thought came from something you shared yesterday, from Soma Resiliency, from Selin, about how— and I've been talking to Selin too about like how the word combat…“let’s, like, combat our eco-anxiety with action!”... That's so aggressive and patriarchal [laughs], as if like, these feelings need to be fought [sound of a fist hitting the palm of a hand] and conquered!! It's…like, no! And so I just think, yeah, like, the whole first part of our conversation was about how necessary these feelings are. And then I was thinking today, how part of what that post said, what Selin shared was that, like, the frontlines for each of us are different. And so like, action has to be different. And I've been really struggling with this thought of like, well, okay, if we have individual frontlines, what does that mean for our collective frontlines, right? Because we can't diminish the people who put their lives on the line to engage in action, right? And be willing to risk arrest and like, there's that kind of action that we all, like, are like, “Thank God, someone's doing that, cause maybe I can't”, you know? Um, but then there are these other actions and some action, of course, it's just like being with our feelings, like the courage of just sitting with grief and not trying to action it away, or using action as an antidote. But if we were only ever in our feelings, what would the world look like, if we were never using all the work we're doing on our feelings to reflect back out to the outer worlds? You know, what we're learning those lessons, the importance of what it means to do the inner work, if we didn't reflect it back out, we would live in this individualistic society, which largely looks like what we're living in right now. You know? And so, I think, like, the way we define action is really important. And what's so interesting to me right now is like, when the three of us got on this call, we were saying, “Yeah, we like feeling so much lower than we did the last time we spoke, it's just been a really heavy few weeks”. And I said that, like, I felt like my action was just taking care of myself this week. And that was actually bringing me a lot of pride to say no to opportunities to hold space for other people. And maybe that doesn't look like action to a lot of people. Maybe it looks like inaction. But for me, in my life, drawing that boundary is like one of the most dedicated, determined actions I can take, learning to say no, you know? And so just realizing how absolutely different and unique action is to each of us, and that, you know, y'all are, you know, have had hard weeks too and gonna take care of yourselves this weekend, and whatever you do to take care of yourselves is probably the most valuable action you could engage in this week, because it's allowing you to show up again, tomorrow, and the next day. And the next day, you know?
Jordan 27:59
You know, you talked about how much pride you had in yourself for the actions that you took this week. What would you have done in the past? Like, what are some signs that maybe, like, people could notice even within themselves that maybe that's also the action that they should be taking? ‘Cause I find that that's often what's hard for me sometimes is, when am I just, you know, just tired from a hard day versus like, I'm feeling this in every part of my being. Like, I'm feeling this rooted trauma in me that then I need to address like, how do you define that difference in yourself? or what have you seen, even in y—...those circles that you guys hold at Good Grief?
Mimi 28:37
That's such a good question, Jordan!
Sarah 28:39
It really is, thank you. Yeah, I think I'll just speak from my most immediate experience, which is that last week, I felt myself being drained. I felt that the last circle I was in— I was so present in the first circle I held for people. And I even said to my partner, I feel like this is one of the most present times I've had in a long time, I just felt so able to hold people and the space and container for their feelings. And on the last circle, I found myself wanting to caffeinate during it, like needing to kind of re energize myself, I found that it was harder for me to access my own empathy for other people, because I was finding this kind of numbness wash over me because I couldn't hold it anymore. It was too hard to keep feeling with people. And I just found myself kind of numbing out and I think that's a really big sign for me. You know, my therapist asked me later in the week, like, “what are you feeling in your body?”. I was like, “you know, I'm really not in my body right now. Like I can tell you kind of what my skin feels, but I'm like not— I can't tell you where I'm holding this emotion; it's even hard for me to pick up where the tension points are right now. And I think those are all me distancing myself from my feeling body because I'm overwhelmed”. And so that's a really easy sign for me. But then there are other signs where I'm just not, you know, working well or I'm not engaged in conversation; when I find myself thinking about other things, it's really hard for me to stay present with a certain task, I get distracted by something else, and I'm just kind of moving around without being able to really sink my effort and attention into something. And yeah, I think the more intense signs of burnout — that I didn't have last week, but I've had in the past — are just like having a really hard time getting out of bed, and dreading something that I usually love. I love my work. If I have dreading getting to work that day, that's a sign that I really need a rest for myself. Or physical signs, you know? Or…you do have a light headache that's kind of there? Do you feel deficient in energy? Is your eye twitching?
Jordan 30:51
I was curious if you kind of ever felt that too, sometimes. When like, you're feeling at your worst, and then there are people around you also feeling the same thing and coming to you being, like, you know, the words of wisdom and having these answers, but sometimes you don't feel like you have yourself. Like, how do you balance that out…as…as well?
Sarah 31:14
Yeah, that's a great question. I don't have words of wisdom, I have my own experience that I'm really honored to share with people. But I…you know, I think the first thing that I try to help people see that I learned from my own experiences, is that, like, jumping into action is a very— I think it is in the same spirit of the systems that created our problem. I don't think jumping into action is the answer to anything, and definitely not to the depth of feelings like grief. And grief moves us, and it will move through us, and it will move us for the rest of our lives, like, this is an emotion that does not get “solved” — I'm using air quotes right now. Same as our climate crisis is not a problem that’s going to be “solved”, we're going to constantly be navigating new realities based on changing dynamic circumstances. And that's the same thing with our heavy emotions in response to the systemic crises we see all over the planet. And when people come to me, seeking words of wisdom, I mean, I have…[laughs] just my own experience, and I don't, I still feel like I'm coming to others [laughs] looking for words of wisdom. I still feel like a kid in this field and in this world. Luckily! [laughs] It's beautiful…to…still be in a beginner's mind a lot. But I think the thing that I really offer people that was one of the hugest antidotes to help me move through the grief was just finding community. So if you've never been around people who have these feelings, you can feel really isolated and alone, and that is really scary! And that fear of aloneness and these feelings, and the weight of them can be totally paralyzing. And so I really encourage people to find community, and the words of wisdom that they're seeking will be tiny offerings from each person in that community in various conversations. And that's what I found! I found coming into 10 Step groups, having conversations with folks like you, like, every time I'm in one of these conversations, someone offers me what I call the golden nugget. And like, you get to— maybe that's, like, very colonial, I need a new phrase, like the…the sprouting seed, you know? Um…[laughs] and, like, I want…I want to walk away with my bag full of sprouting seeds. And each one of those opens up a tiny window in my mind, and it's because someone else shared something on their heart that reached mine. It wasn't that they read something that they offered to me that was like, brilliant. It's like it's just two people meeting each other and seeing each other in the depths of grief or in the depths of fear, or rage, or whatever these feelings are— sometimes it's hope, you know? When we see each other in that, I really think those are what that's what we're seeking. We're seeking that reconnection, that reminder that we're not alone, that reminder that there are other people standing up who care about this, and are going to also change their own behaviors and their own ways of being, in order to see this crisis and…and work within it, and with it, you know?
Jordan 34:32
Yeah I love that. I rem— I remember reading an article recently that just echoed everything you just said about. The question was like, “what is often missing in climate change discussions?”, and it was the idea that…of the certainty of trauma, and the importance of building resilience, and how like numerous studies have shown that, like, individuals who have healthily— healthy, socially connected communities have greater overall resilience and just a greater capacity to…um...just kind of not overcome these adverser—, like, ad… adversities, but just kind of like, able to cope with just the impact of what this anything is gonna bring and the trauma that it could bring too, so yeah, hm…everything you said.
Sarah 35:19
Exactly.
Mimi 35:21
Yeah. And I think...I think the idea of finding community, as you both just said, it's just so valuable. But it can feel so difficult if you feel outside of any community, especially now during the pandemic. It's just, yeah, just isolation is just such a horrible, horrible feeling. So if anyone's listening right now, and that's how you're feeling... I don't know that— [laughs] I was gonna give some great advice, but I don't know that I have any. It's just, it's hard and...
Jordan 35:53
You're not alone.
Mimi 35:54
Yeah, you're not alone!
Sarah 35:55
You're not alone!
Mimi 35:56
Yeah!
Sarah 35:56
And reach out because people love you. People don't want you to feel alone. Your community loves you. And the first— the hardest thing to do is ask, right? To ask someone, like, “do you have an hour to be on the phone with me today? ‘Cause I'm struggling”. It's so hard.
Mimi 36:11
Yeah
Sarah 36:11
And then what's harder than asking is receiving it when someone says yes, it's like, oh, God, am I deserving?
Mimi 36:16
Yeah.
Sarah 36:16
...of their time? You know, we question ourselves, but these are the foundational pillars of community: we have to be willing to offer help, receive help, rest ourselves, be together. And then once we built those things, that's when communities are really good at sustaining action, about coming up with ideas and how they want to change the world, you know?
Mimi 36:40
Hm mmm.
Sarah 36:40
And I think that's…that that's the second step, after we found the people that wanna build toward a common future with us. Yeah, and learn how to trust them.
Mimi 36:50
I think you touched on, like, a really important point there too, Sarah, is like, ask for help. Like people…they're not necessarily mind readers, and everyone's going through their own stuff, so it's not that they don't want to help, but if you're feeling down, seek out help. Don't necessarily wait for it to come. ‘Cause I know I've been in situations where I've waited for it to come. And then I feel, like, resentment towards the people closest to me. It's just, like, well, they had no idea that they—I was going through something, right? So I can't, I can't put that on them.
Jordan 37:18
I was gonna say there's also an emphasis on that, I think, when people ask for help, too, not to expect quick and easy solutions too, because I know that's what a lot of us…
Mimi 37:26
A 100%, yes!
Jordan 37:26
…do, when we…when we seek out help is we just want someone to tell us exactly how to feel better.
Mimi 37:32
Yes!!
Jordan 37:32
And…And it's so hard sometimes to hear that, like, there are going to be things that you're just not going to feel better about. And…and just kind of dealing with that too, especially with this, you know, climate crisis is, there's nothing that's gonna stop us from feeling fear, or stop us from feeling this grief. It's learning kind of how to embrace it. And sometimes, all you need is just this…this space to talk about it. And I think that's what um...are th—
Mimi 38:02
Yeah… And the safety to, like, lean into the grief, too.
Sarah 38:05
Yes.
Jordan 38:07
Yeah.
Sarah 38:07
And, and I think that…that this conversation, like the…the piece we're missing is that if we all are holding up our own boundaries, in a strong way, we can trust that others won't offer help if they can't…if their cup isn't full, if they can't offer it, and that others won't receive it, if they aren't ready to, or that others aren't gonna not ask and then hold resentments. Like, that's part of what we have to do when we build these relationships, is just trust that everyone's gonna know what their own barometer is, of being able to give, and receive, and share. And, you know, and only when we trust each other doing that, do we not have all those other kind of, like, feelings and anxieties come up about how much we can take or give, you know? Because I think you made a really good point, Jordan, that we can't expect quick fixes. And in that we also can't expect that everyone we ask like, “Hey, do you have an hour” is going to be there, you know? They might not have an hour. And how beautiful to know that someone's going to be honest about that. It, like, relieves the pressure of receiving, you know?
Mimi 39:10
Yeah, yeah, but I just— Yeah, I really love the idea of like, we immediately want to go into action but let's…let's rethink that and let's, let's consider other ways that we can put our emotions and our feelings into something good, whatever that may be, right?
Sarah 39:31
Yeah. And let's redefine action.
Mimi 39:34
Yeah.
Sarah 39:34
What is action? Is act— Like, action is present parenting, action is taking care of yourself, action is deconstructing your racism. Action is so many things that does not involve putting your feet at a prot— on the ground at a protest. And, you know, Good Grief is just so dedicated to redefining what meaningful activism means because there is a world of people out there that think that they're not activists, and so therefore they are limiting their imagination of what they can accomplish, what their tiny actions can do. The world is full of tiny actions! That's all it is!! Of course, big protests, and you know, boycotts and policies make huge changes. But those changes are only possible when the culture itself is, like, accepting those as legitimate as, like, a new paradigm emerging. And that new paradigm emerges by a bunch of people taking tiny action and deciding that they're going to change their life in some direction. And I think we see that happening with the climate movement, people are being a lot more conscious about their consumption, whatever that means, you know? Whether it's media consumption, or, you know, fossil fuel consumption. But people are starting to be more conscious. And we see that emerging, and it's allowing policy to emerge. And, you know, I think, we have this idea that policy comes first and then like, then we— then we're on our way, like, let's get some environmental policies, like, no! Let's get, like, you know, almost 8 billion people doing something tiny every day, and let them all think of themselves as activists so that they can build an identity and a competence, and believe that they're meaningful people here, you know? ‘Cause we all are, even if we can't protest or can't write letters to, you know, members of parliament or Congress.
Jordan 41:22
But it's also that idea that you don't also have to be doing action 100% of the day, too. And I definitely can't catch myself constantly being like, I'm not doing enough, because I haven't spent the majority of my day thinking about the climate crisis and doing everything I possibly can, and every waking second that I'm not working, I should be. And I feel like a lot of people feel that way, too, is that they don't call themselves an environmentalist or an activist, or anything, because they're not spending the majority of their time trying to make profound change.
Mimi 41:52
Yeah, don't put it all on you either. Like, as soon as we— like, it's so important to do individual actions. And I'm not in any way saying that you shouldn't improve your life. But at the same time, like, as soon as we start shaming ourselves and shaming our individual actions, we're taking the conversation away from the people that are polluting, and the institutions that are—
Sarah 42:13
The corporately elite!!
Mimi 42:13
Yeah, exactly. So as soon as we start shaming ourselves, like, they're winning, again! [laughs]
Sarah 42:19
Exactly. [laughs] So it's like we had these ideas that...that again, like, as you all know, like, hold us to this perfectionist standard, and the second we hold ourselves there, we're not holding, you know, the corporate and political elite responsible for their grievous wrongdoings, and we're making us…yeah. [laughs]
Mimi 42:35
And that's ex—...I mean, I think it's you, Sarah, that told me that it was BP Oil that—
Sarah 42:40
BP?
Mimi 42:40
Yeah, that— Is it Oil? BP Oil? Is that what they're called?
Sarah 42:42
BP, yeah, yeah.
Mimi 42:43
Yeah BP, okay. Um, that they were the ones that created this idea of, like, a carbon footprint. And now we're all obsessed with, like, our own carbon footprints. And it's just like, yeah, that…that's important, like know, how your actions are contributing to the planet, but also, how are BP's actions? [laughs]
Jordan 43:00
[laughs]
Sarah 43:01
Exactly! Yeah, there's nothing I could do in my lifetime that would reach the level of BP, you know?
Mimi 43:07
Yeah.
Sarah 43:07
And so, yeah, just being gentle with ourselves is so important.
Mimi 43:13
But if somebody's feeling eco-anxiety, what can their next steps be?
Jordan 43:18
Good Grief Network? [laughs]
Sarah 43:21
Definitely! [laughs]
Mimi 43:22
You don't plug Amazon, but we'll plug GG— [all laugh]
Jordan 43:24
We'll plug, we'll plug GGN!
Mimi 43:25
Happily, happily!
Jordan 43:26
Happily!
Sarah 43:28
Um, yeah, I mean, if someone is experiencing— I mean, I'll just talk to your listeners. If you're experiencing acute eco-anxiety in this moment, or in the moments that follow this podcast, or today, reach out to a friend. And friend can be broad. Friend can be an animal companion, friend can be a tree in your yard. We're living in a great web of people that are connected, both human and more than human. And the tree in your yard would be so happy to have your connection and love, if you're feeling that, in this moment. And so I think people reaching out to other people — however you define people — is really important, but especially connecting with other humans, who you feel safe to share a full spectrum of emotions with, is really important. And maybe that's a physician, or a therapist, or a mentor, or a coach, or a parent. But whoever is someone in your life that you trust to hold your emotions, I think connecting with that person and telling them “hey, I'm in a really— I'm in a bit of a challenging space right now. Do you have time for me?” And see who shows up for you and people will, and that's the beauty is that we're so conditioned not to even ask, you know, that we think “oh, they would never, they— oh they have so much better to do they're so busy with their kids or their this their job!” It's like no, our friends really want to show up for us and especially post COVID. And so I think— or we're not post-COVID, excuse me, in the US, I have a very skewed idea of where we are in the pandemic, but I just want to reel back and say, especially during this ongoing pandemic, people really want to seek out connection. But other really important things you can do if you're experiencing this either acutely or it's kind of integrated into your system, or it comes and goes, I think body movement is incredibly important. Find a way to move your body that can be dancing, or practicing yoga, going for a run, just walking… I do this really weird thing where I just kind of like hinge at my waist and let my arm swing like a primate. And that really helps. [laughs] I think that any mindfulness practice, you can do like journaling, something that gets you out of your head a little bit, sometimes journaling with a…with an alarm, where you just don't lift your pen off the page for let's say, 7 or 10 minutes, that really helps get you out of your thinking mind and into your body. Or there's breath work you can do, whatever meditation means to you of— whatever ways you can sit in your stillness and allow the emotion to wash over you. Another technique I used when I experienced eco-anxieties, I just lay on the bed without anything around me and I spread out like a starfish, and I just try to name where the feeling is. Sometimes I'm like, oh, it's like in my jaw. Oh, now it's in my chest, like, ooh, now my stomach has a cramp. And if you sit with it long enough, it will leave your body because it is in motion, very literally. And I think other things are more practical, like you can join a Good Grief Network 10 Step group, you can visit our website, I'm gonna plug that for a second, it's www.goodgriefnetwork.org. And on the very front page, you can click to join a group, to be notified of the next group, to become a facilitator, if you want to facilitate your own groups, because you want to hold your community in these types of…types of spaces. But you can also in the meantime, connect with us on social media, we have a really engaged community. And we have a community on Mighty Networks, which is a woman-run platform for connecting people on social media. And Mighty Networks has different circles, so you can join different circles based on what your interests are, and talk to people and exchange ideas. There are some Facebook groups that are really helpful, the Deep Adaptation Facebook group. Those folks are really extreme in the doom that they see in the world, but they are also very loving. So if you're ready to enter that space, you can try that. But mostly, I would just suggest moving your body, speaking nicely to yourself. Remembering that you are not alone. That's the number one thing I want to tell you, is if you're experiencing eco-anxiety, I am too at this very moment, and you are not alone in that. And the work I do has a lot of resources to help you, but also the community of people we've brought together are all incredibly unique individuals who in their own passions and experiences have a lot to offer you, if you want to connect with them. [Mimi says something inaudible] And on Good Grief’s webpage, there is a resources page. So we have videos that can help lead you through body movement or breathing exercises, if this is new to you.
Jordan 48:14
Oh, I didn’t know that!
Sarah 48:14
It was…it was new to me. Yeah, there are resources, we have two pages: resources for your mind and resources for your body. So you can kind of pick what you're looking for resources for your mind are a lot of articles, videos, you know different media you can look at and then we have resources to help guide you through body movement practice. And I'll share this again because it was a big hit on the Start the Wave panel, but I subscribe to what's called the saltwater trifecta, which is I make sure that I cry, I sweat and I swim every day. And the water part is not always swimming in saltwater. Sometimes it's really just taking a cold washcloth and putting it over my face to jerk me back into my body. But I highly recommend finding ways to move, and process, and connect.
Jordan 49:01
Thank you for that, Sarah, that— Ugh, it's amazing! And I feel so much more reinvigorated and even just a hopeful— Every time I hear you s— you talk, I don't know if Mimi you feel the same way but I always—
Mimi 49:13
Oh yes.
Jordan 49:14
And it makes my heart feel full. My heart feels full.
Sarah 49:17
Oh...!
Mimi 49:17
It feels very healing.
Sarah 49:18
That makes MY heart feel full. Yes! I really appreciate y'all. I just want to take a second here to thank you both for—
Mimi 49:24
No, thank you!
Sarah 49:25
— how warm you've been!
Jordan 49:27
Yeah, no problem. You're..
Mimi 49:28
Thank you for being you.
Jordan 49:30
I was gonna say.
Mimi 49:30
Honestly.
Jordan 49:31
Yeah, thank you!
Mimi 49:31
Yeah, thank you so much for, like, your time and your energy. Not just for this podcast,—
Sarah 49:35
Thank you all!
Mimi 49:35
— but for, like, the world. Like, I think...yeah, you're such an incredible and inspiring human.
Jordan 49:40
You're an imperfect eco-hero!
Mimi 49:41
Not trying to put you on a pedestal, but...
Jordan 49:43
Yeah no no, it's okay, we'll knock you down. You're...
Mimi 49:46
You're imperfect. [laughs]
Jordan 49:47
You're imperfect, don't worry. [all laughs]
Sarah 49:49
[laughs] I love that!! What a way to end! I love that...I love that. [shouts] I'm a hypocrite!!
Jordan 49:57
We all are. We're all imperfect. We're all hypocrites. So okay!
Mimi 50:01
Embrace it.
Jordan 50:02
We need more of it. We're not perfect.
Mimi 50:04
Yeah! [laughs]
Jordan 50:05
And I don't think it— I don't think that ever existed.
[outro]
Mimi 50:08
Thanks for listening to this episode of Imperfect Eco-Hero. Stay connected with us through our instagram @Imperfect_ecohero or email us at imperfectecohero@gmail.com. If you want to learn more about our podcast or see resources related to this episode, visit our website imperfectecohero.com.
