How to be a Hypocrite and an Eco-hero with Sarah JS Part I
Jordan 0:01
In mainstream climate change discourse, there’s often a narrative used regularly to drive action that centers around this idea that we can stop climate change. But we cannot stop climate change from happening because it's already here. And it's been here for a while, and we contribute to it daily, some more than others. And fully coming to terms with that is the first step of climate action for individuals, but provides a new level of existential trauma most of us are not equipped to handle. The problem is that the human psyche is hardwired to disengage from information or experiences that are overwhelmingly difficult or disturbing. This is particularly true if an individual feels powerless to affect change. For many of us, we'd literally rather not know because otherwise it creates such an acutely distressing experience for us as humans. But this makes communicating the reality of the climate crisis, and examining the complex social structures behind it, a psychological dilemma with existential consequences. As Dr. Catherine Wilkinson, the climate author and podcast host behind A Matter of Degrees, once wrote about the five steps to figuring out how to be of use when it comes to answering the call to climate change. And she had said that the first step has to be feeling your feelings. But how is anyone supposed to prepare themselves for coping with this level of anxiety or grief? Because this deepening existential crisis of climate change presents an entirely new, unprecedented and higher order category of trauma that literally no one has ever dealt with before. Climate change might be the greatest trauma on the grandest scale. Fortunately, one nonprofit organization is trying to do exactly that, and provide individuals with the tools to understand, come to terms with, and metabolize those feelings. And that organization is the Good Grief Network.
[intro music]
Jordan 2:08
Hey, this is Jordan!
Mimi 2:10
And this is Mimi.
Jordan 2:11
And welcome to the Imperfect Eco-Hero podcast.
Mimi 2:14
The series that connects community, normalizes imperfections and empowers heroes.
[end of intro music]
Jordan 2:23
Today, we're joined with an inspiring and incredible human being, writer, human rights lawyer and Executive Director and facilitator at Good Grief Network, Sarah JS. Sarah has spent a lifetime trying to answer the question of how to deal with the grace and suffering in the world by focusing her attention on international human rights law, climate justice activism, therapeutic introspection, and community resilience building. All of that has led her to the incredible nonprofit organization, Good Grief Network. And we're so lucky that Sarah has agreed to join us in not just one, but two conversations on this important topic, and to share her story and journey with the Imperfect Eco-Hero community.
Jordan 3:11
Well, hello, Sarah!
Sarah 3:12
Hi!
Jordan 3:12
We're so glad to have you here. Welcome back.
Sarah 3:17
Thanks!
Jordan 3:18
Yeah, tell us a little bit about Good Grief Network and your role at it.
Sarah 3:22
Okay, thanks. So I'm Sarah, and I'm Good Grief Networks executive director. What Good Grief Network does is create spaces where people can gather in community and process the painful feelings and realities of living through this time on Earth. And people have really heavy feelings about what it is to live in a destructive culture, during ecological, social, political, economic collapse and chaos. And we provide spaces where those people can come together and collectively process those feelings. In a non judgmental and really heart centered space. We are a peer to peer support group. So we don't have any leader or therapist, but rather facilitators who are facilitating the conversations to make sure that there's no crosstalk and we find that when people can really just share what's on their hearts and minds, and be witnessed in their journey. That's very healing. And we don't believe that we know how to fix anyone. We believe that people know how to fix themselves. And so we don't come trying to fix people, but we come trying to hear and see people. And we provide the spaces where people can do that. And it's an…a model that's inspired from the 12 step, or Alcoholics Anonymous recovery model of peer to peer support. And I actually found Good Grief as a participant in a 10 step program when I was at a real low in my grief and anxiety and despair. And I came to Good Grief a few years ago as a 10 step participant and have completely transformed my career to now be the executive director of this amazing organization.
Jordan 5:01
That's amazing. That's...it...I was actually curious how you even heard about Good Grief in the first place. Like, I know that's so hard to hear about these resources. I'm, like, curious what…what drew you in initially, to join it?
Sarah 5:16
I love this story. I had…I was living abroad in Portugal and Brett Kavanaugh had just been selected to be a justice in the US— the United States Supreme Court, and…after allegations of sexual assault. And I was in just an absolute rut from that, and it was the fall, it was the…I think September and it was also just wildfires ravaging the West Coast of the US where I spent a lot of time before I moved abroad. And I was just in absolute devastation. And I posted something on Facebook saying, “Is anyone else just going mad? Does anyone feel like they just cannot process all this? This is just too much, is anyone with me here?”
And I had a dear friend from law school, reach out to me and say, I think you should check out this organization called Good Grief Network. And that's all she said in a message. But it was such a heartfelt message; she really had seen my despair, and kind of, you know, guided me toward this organization. I went to their web page, and I think I signed up that week for their next 10 Step group. And you know, that's part of what we do at Good Grief Network, we run a 10 step program. And we go through a cyclical journey very similar to the 12 steps that help people start by accepting the severity of the predicament, and at step 10, we reinvest in meaningful efforts and redefine what activism means to us individually. And when I approached Good Grief Network, I was definitely in the stage of step one, accepting the severity of the predicament; I couldn't accept it. And it was very transformative to be guided to an organization that was asking me not to accept it, because I thought there would be a solution, but to accept it so that I could start to heal all of the pain I felt about it. And yeah, that was my…I remember after my first meeting, I was so giddy. Most people after their first meeting feel a lot of intensity, because it's a very tough thing to ask people to enter into a set of new relationships with 10 other people, 12 other people and accept what we're going through. At stage one, people are like, “shouldn't this be step 10?”. But at stage one, we asked that and most people, we asked them to please find a way to connect and to soothe themselves that night, because it's very heavy for folks. And I had a totally different experience where I was dancing around my living room, because I was like, “There are people like me, there are other people that feel this, and I just spent two hours with them!!”, and I was over the moon. And the beauty of the story is that the woman who recommended me to Good Grief Network is now one of our Good Grievers who's been through our 10 Step programs and shows up to support the network in a lot of different ways. And that's really the story of this network is people who've been influenced by the work or transformed by the work just showing up to help each other.
Jordan 8:04
I love that!
Mimi 8:05
I love that story, that's so beautiful. I just like the idea of, like, you dancing around and just like celebrating that you found this community. [Sarah laughs] It's just like, I love that so much. So thank you for sharing that. I'm curious about, like, clearly this was a pivotal moment in your journey of environmentalism is, like, finding this community and…and also prior to that feeling those feelings of despair and anxiety. I'm curious to know, like, about your environmental journey like before that, like, how did you get to that point?
Sarah 8:36
Yeah. I…I’ve been asked this question a lot, and it's hard to find a point where the journey started. But my grandma was a child of the Depression. And so recycling was not recycling for environmentalists, they…for the sake of environmentalism, but recycling, because we needed to reuse things that we had because resources were scarce. And so my grandma just had a very…what we would now call, like, a very green or sustainable value system and mentality from the time I was a kid. My dad…we also, yeah…he was like the warden of recycling in our house, like, things had to be broken down, and boxes had to be broken down. And there was a lot of that messaging in my culture, but I see environmentalism, obviously much bigger now. But I think as a child that was really part of my life. And then yeah, I started learning about climate crisis in high school, mostly on my own. And ultimately did a lot of…kind of short term environmental jobs that work for solar companies, things that now I see are, like, very much embedded in the corporate world. And my environmental wisdom right now is like very much embedded in the healing world, which is such an interesting, you know, new space to be in. But I ultimately, you know, just felt like I really…like a real sense of overwhelm, as I think a lot of young folks do now. Just kind of, like, looking around for anyone that…gives a shit? Can I say that on this podcast? [laughs]
Jordan 10:03
[chuckles] Yeah!
Mimi 10:04
Yeah yeah.
[everyone laughs]
Sarah 10:06
But like, just like I felt like a kid in high…in high school, I grew up in a really wealthy town on the East Coast, the…in the northeast of the US. And no one cared about this stuff, and I felt really lost. And I think that sense of…but I was really close to Manhattan, so I had a lot of influence of other ideas that were more radical. And I think a kind of a sense of loss led me to just start doing a lot. And like, you know, trying to find little jobs and doing little activism here and there, and ultimately, those little things culminated in me going to law school, studying environmental law and natural resources, becoming an international environmental attorney, and going to different United Nations Climate Negotiations all over the world and supporting small island nations who have a hard time having their voices heard in enormous negotiations. And it just was such an overlay for me of human rights and environmental degradation. I've never really seen a separation. You know, environmentalism is social justice, environmental justice, his racial justice, these issues are also intertwined because they come from the same root source of othering people and creating separations as if we're not all a…a web on this planet. And I think, between a lot of human rights work I did when I was younger, before I found my environmental calling, and then ultimately becoming an environmental attorney, the journey...um…yeah, the journey was a little zigzaggy. I don't have, like, a great origin and destin— I mean, here's my destination story. But I don't have a great origin story. It just kind of was a lot of things throughout my life. And I spent a lot of time outside as a kid and feeling a call to protect people in places was just always part of me, living in me.
Mimi 12:02
I think that's really incredible. ‘Cause I think sometimes we strive to have those origin stories, those, like, really like cool stories. [backtracking] I mean, your story is really cool, but like—
Jordan 12:10
—I was gonna say, it’s an epic origin story! [laughs]
Mimi 12:11
Yeah! But yeah, just like how it's just kind of, like, peppered throughout your life and how you, like, gathered from each experience, the environmental side of it.
Jordan 12:21
Yeah..
Mimi 12:21
I think that's really beautiful, as opposed to this, like, one— Like, often we’re, like, showcased with this one really powerful story, like, ‘this is the moment that changed my life!’, you know? And I think what you're saying, at least for me, is very relatable of how it's just like, continuous and just a little bit here, a little bit there.
Jordan 12:39
Hm mmm.
Sarah 12:39
Yeah..
Jordan 12:40
I'd say the same.
Mimi 12:41
Yeah, yeah. And I think it's a lot about, like, perception too, like, like, what are the actionable things you're doing to make yourself an environmentalist, right? But being an environmentalist can come fully with—...within.
Jordan 12:53
Within, yeah.
Sarah 12:53
Exactly!
Mimi 12:54
So that, like, it doesn't have to be your CV of environmentalism.
Sarah 12:59
Exactly. I really feel that. I've really struggled for a long time in early interviews with Good Grief when people are like, yeah, what's your story? Like, it's a story of my life. Like, I've just never not been thinking about this. And I just really appreciate places, spaces like this where we can kind of deconstruct the idea of romanticizing the thing that led us to deep grief. You know, we romanticize the…the trauma of living through a destructive culture, because it wraps up neatly in a story, but some of the most potent stories are ones that have just been woven through our experiences in kind of imperceptible ways.
Jordan 13:34
Yeah!
Mimi 13:35
One of the questions that we always ask our guests, and I love every single answer, because they're always so beautiful, and always so meaningful. But how do you understand your relationship with nature? And how did your environmental journey shaped this understanding?
Sarah 13:49
Again, that's another relationship that's shaped-shifted over time. And…for most of my life, I saw myself as apart from nature, and nature was something I observed and revered and appreciated. And now I know that I'm…that I am nature, like, I know that…I am nature, I'm not protecting or I'm using air quotes here “protecting or conserving” nature. I am nature, the way I treat myself is the way I'm capable of treating everything around me, and you know… And I think…I spent a lot of summers when I was a kid at a summer camp for eight weeks…a sleepaway camp in the Adirondacks. And that's a really beautiful Glacial Lake region and central upstate New York. And the reverence for that place, and how rustic my summers were there and how…I really just loved being dirty and loved being…you know, in the woods there, in a canoe. I did not like going in th—…those cold waters, but I did. And I really just…I loved being outside and there was something about…there were certain points of the camp that were high enough that you could just see layer after layer of these blue mountains. And I remember I used to try to count how many different blues I could see. And that was kind of the beginning of my relationship with nature as being a place where I found a lot of perspective. And that's, I think the theme of my relationship with nature is perspective. Now, my perspective is that I'm completely intertwined. But it used to be that I would get up on a mountain and see so much vast landscape around me and I'd feel so small. And it was such an invigorating feeling to remember that my problems only exist within the confines of my tiny little head, and my tiny head is just one part of this body, which is so tiny in space physically compared to all these natural wonders around me. And it would really help put my own conflict and anxiety in perspective, and I could see just something so much greater and older and more ancient and wiser than me, and that always felt like a good ego check. And so, now I see myself as a very different part of the landscape. You know, like a little…a tiny little bug walking around. But yeah, I think my relationship with nature is really about finding perspective and getting out of my head. And getting into like, a different mind, like, this communal mind that's all around us, like the wisdom that's around us that we forget, if we're just stuck in our own thoughts walking through the woods, you know? It's very easy to forget that there are so many other beings having a very similar experience to you, they just looked different!
Mimi 16:33
Listening to what you described, like, with your environmental journey, and then also with your relationship to environmentalism…Like there was kind of like, even though it was like scattered throughout and change throughout your life, there were like moments that you said, like, in your environmental journey, you switched to, like, healing. And then in your, like, relationship with nature, you switched to, like, understanding yourself as a part of nature. Did those two, like, help each other and encourage each other?
Sarah 17:00
Absolutely, absolutely. And this is like something that, you know, we'll get into talking about later, but part of seeing myself as part of nature is learning to forgive myself and not be so hard on myself for being like a “human parasite” on this Earth, you know? Like, no, I am, whatever energy I bring in this human form, right? And the more I've healed myself, and been able to forgive myself for how I am imperfect, and how I've made mistakes, and how… yeah, for ever— so many…and aside for my own environmentalism mistakes I just make in my life regularly, and the judgments I cast and…as I've learned to forgive myself, I feel like I've like softened, or like, melted into this world around me a little better. I don't have to have so many defenses that protect me from everything else, and make sure that I'm doing it right, and making sure that I have just the right thing to say in case someone finds out I'm doing it wrong.It's like to break down those walls internally in my own inner work and my own journey through different types of therapy has meant that I'm more able to break them down between myself and what I once perceived as an external world around me.
Jordan 18:10
That's really...that's really interesting. That idea of kind of breaking it down and, like, also just kind of feeling it. Caroline Hickman, the climate psychotherapist that you've met, and is wonderful...
Sarah 18:22
Wonderful!
Jordan 18:22
...recommended a really cool book called Swamplands of the Soul: Finding Life in Dismal Places [Note: It's actually New Life, not Finding Life]. And it reminded me so much of everything you just said, because the whole book teaches you how to…honestly find new life in those places. And it's really funny, they talk about how often we…we strive for perfection, and this, like, ideal of happiness, and just all of those things that you're…you’re talking about. And actually, most change happens in dismal places, like, places of depression and grief, and anxiety. And…and it's actually our body's defense mechanism, when you're feeling things of depression or despair or grief, that something else is wrong, or there's something else that you need to work on about yourself. And actually trying to avoid it, trying to push it away, actually defeats the purpose. Like, we operate with our body in so many ways that we're so unaware of, and the things that we tried to, like, push down and get rid of are actually great tools for us to learn and evolve. And we just really see ourselves in, like, a backwards way with mental health and everything. And I, and I…yeah, I just think that's… that's a big area where we should be focusing a lot on, for climate change, especially when it comes to eco-anxiety and all the anxiety and grief and trauma and anger we're feeling. Which leads us into our next question, which is where I was hoping to go with this, but…You talked a l—…you talked a lot about how when you first found Good Grief, it was when you were seeing all the wildfires in the news, and then there was the Brett Kavanaugh announcement and…All that anxiety, like…what is eco-anxiety to you? And, like, has that understanding and just your own relationship with— relationship with it evolved since…since Good...Good Grief?
Sarah 20:12
Hm…Yeah, I mean, for a lot of my life, I used the phrase Earth grief, because I didn't know there was a term to describe what I was going through. And it's just this sense, I mean, some people call…feeling solastalgia, this…this sense of loss of a place. And you know, there are places I love that have burned, you know, and I…there is a very potent and acute grief in that. And that's very similar to losing a loved one, the…a personal loss, something… and let's just call tree a someone — why do we have to call them things? That allows us to think that they are different than us. But some…some people, some tree-people I love have died, and not being able to ever return to them is very similar to not ever being able to see my grandmother again, for example. The griefs have presented in my life very differently. But I think there's another grief that is what I was feeling before I found Good grief, which was just this despair, this…the sense that a lot of young people are talking about now. Just this absolute disappointment that we are not going to have the lives we imagined we are going to have, that animals we thought we might see are not going to be alive, the places we thought we might see will not be there that people we thought we're living a certain way are actually living under terrible conditions, the…the grief of awakening to some of the truths that the dominant culture wants to hide us from. And some of that is very literal, some of that is deforestation and destruction. And so I always saw it as Earth grief, because it would really come up during wildfire season for me. Just this terrible anxiety and this sadness, and I would just sometimes cry all day, it was…I couldn't get out of bed, some days. And I think now how I understand my eco-anxiety is — I was just telling a friend this right before we hopped on this call that I don't feel it that acutely anymore. Like, when I see the flooding in Germany, for example, they're a few years ago, where I would not be able to process very much during a day if I had seen videos of that. And now, I don't know if it's because I've been in Good Grief work for so long, and I'm processing my emotions, or I have to be an executive director and present a fairly professional face, and women who are emotional are not taken very seriously in professional spaces. And so maybe I am suppressing some of my grief so that it's not written all over me all the time. But part of me had this fear of, like, what if I'm just numb to it? But as I was talking to this friend, what I realized is that what I'm learning now about eco-anxiety is that this is just a state. This is a state of…of life, like a lot of other states, and this is one that isn't as acute because it's been integrated into my, like, sense of being. Like, it's really hard to not react to what's happening in the world. And I don't want to be someone who doesn't react, I don't want to be numb, I don't want to shut my eyes to what's happening in this world, because my emotions tell me that I'm alive and I'm feeling and that there's something…a boundary of mine or, or a value of mine that's being affronted. And, and those…those cues, like you said Jordan, from this book, like, anger is a cue, it's a cue that something in our body is not right or something in the world is not right. And we don't need to suppress those feelings or, you know, abolish them from our…the way that we are, our personalities, but we need to learn from them. And maybe we don't react out of anger toward another people because we feel anger, but we learn “okay, this anger is really useful”. And so I see that with my eco-anxiety too. Like, my eco-anxiety is really useful when it's really alarming in me right now, that's a clue that I'm not well regulated. That's a clue that like, this…this feeling of living through grief and anxiety and depression in a…in a harmed society and a natural world that's dying, like, my response of anxiety and depression, those are natural, those are really healthy responses. And so I want to feel them, but when they start sounding as alarm bells in my life, and I'm starting to become reactive, I think that eco-anxiety serves to really show me that, like, I'm not doing enough work to move my body or connect with friends or be or sleep well, you know. And so, I see my emotions now as really helpful cues as opposed to states of being that are trapping me within myself. And I think that's kind of the evolution I've had. But that's not to say I don’t feel it anymore. It's just so well integrated into my experience that — which is sad, but the truth — that I think um.. I live with it, you know?
Jordan 25:09
Oh, I absolutely can relate with you there. And personally, I just had an experience that echoes a lot of what you just said: in Canada, specifically in British Columbia, the hottest temperature was ever recorded in Canada's history in a town called Litton, of 49.6 degrees Celsius. And in a matter of days, since that temperature was reached, the town burned down, people died, it's practically gone. 90% of it is gone. And I did not know, like,...I almost felt so numb to it. Like, it didn't even register this…the severity of what all of this means, and like, its significance. And then I follow a climate meme page that happened to have — I don't know if anyone saw it — it was the Homer Simpson meme. And on the top half of the men— meme, it said, “this is the hottest…hottest summer that has ever been recorded in our lifetime”. And just underneath it said, “this is the coldest summer for the rest of your life”. And that sent me down the biggest eco-anxiety spiral. And I don't know why just hearing it reframed like that made me so terrified. But it's interesting, like you said, I found the only thing to help me get out of that was like, reaching out to friends, doing yoga, like, actually not ignoring it, but like, trying to…hm…not live with it in a way, I don't even know how to explain it, but it was just kind of get myself more grounded to then act on it, was I think the best way of putting it. But yeah, I had…I just had that recently. And yeah, exactly like you said. I found it was a good indication that I also…I need to be around people, I need to talk to people. And we talked about this. And it really helped hearing other people also express the same anger, or fear, or guilt. So, yeah, everything you're talking about, I can echo back saying that it has worked for me too. But...
Sarah 27:08
Hm mmm.
Mimi 27:09
Yeah, and I think what both of you have said in in your journey is about experiencing this is that you don't want to necessarily not experience eco-anxiety, like, you’re like, not necessarily welcoming it, but like, observing it from like a third-party point of view and say like, “Oh, hey, like, this is how I'm feeling? And what is that telling me about my body”. But I think when it comes to eco-anxiety from, like, the narrative I've seen online, and also just around, like, anxiety and depression and other…other forms of sadness or grief that we may feel, it can often be pathologized. And yeah the goal is to like, get rid of those feelings and move on. So you're in a place of, like, true happiness, right? So I'm really interesting— or interested in hearing about how you have seen eco grief be pathologized? And who is pathologizing it?
Sarah 28:01
Yeah, thank you. I love this question, Mimi. I love talking about this, because…I think the mainstream media to answer your question directly is the…is one group that's pathologizing, eco-anxiety. And with good intention, I want to say. And not that all pathologies are bad. And not that there is even good or bad [laughs]. But we can kind of, you know, move away from some of these binaries of “Do you have this disorder or do you not?” like, “if you do, do you need to be treated or do—” you know? I think we can say that um…you know, there's a quote we use at Good Grief a lot, which is that um…we..that to be alive and feeling in this time is a really healthy response. Like we said before, you know, like, it's…here's the quote, “it's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society”. And I think that when we pathologize eco-grief, or anxiety or eco-anxiety, we are saying there's a problem with this. And what I say and what folks at Good Grief say is “no, this is a completely healthy response. Because you're living through really uncertain times. And uncertainty is what makes humans feel really anxious, and you're living through times of destruction, and that creates a sense of grief. And for you to notice these things about yourself is really helpful”, actually, like we just said they're cues. And I think that the danger of pathologizing it is that it makes a lot of people feel like they need help for these feelings. And they might! I needed help for…to help them manage some of my feelings. But you don't need help because there's something wrong with you if you feel these feelings. I didn't need help because there was something wrong with me, I think society needs help recognizing that these are healthy responses and we don't have the mental health resources to support the number of people that feel them. And then I think…um the…the other danger is that it…it takes people out of themselves. And so what we talk—…what y'all talk about in this podcast a lot, it's like, “oh, now I need extra, I need to do more! I need to do more, I need to go to therapy, I need to do this…”. It's like, yeah, when we pathologize things, we try to find treatments. And I think if we just accept the reality that a lot of people living through these times are going to feel heavy emotions, instead of looking for a treatment plan, we can look for, like societal treatment plans, you know? Maybe more community centers, maybe more free mental health resources, maybe corporations that take accountability for some of their grievous wrongdoing, so that individuals don't need to pay the psychological price for a, you know, burning Earth. And I just think the danger of the pathology is what comes next. I don't think there's a danger…if people want to identify as having eco-anxiety, I think that's a really useful identity, because it helps bring people together. But if we're identifying people as having eco-anxiety, because we want to treat them and maybe we want to treat them with pharmaceuticals, which might not be the best option for everybody — although I think it is a good option for a lot of people who are in acute distress — I think that that is…yeah…an important conversation to have ‘what comes next after we pathologize something?’. Because people want to include this in…you know, the diagnostic manual for psychiatric disorders. And uh…why? That would be my question, who does that serve? Is it serving the people who feel these feelings? And if so, great! Let's talk about that. But if it's not, yeah, who is it serving?
Mimi 31:39
What you just said reminded me of a book I read a couple of years ago. And so I can't remember all the details exactly but it was called McMindfulness. And it's like, this idea of, like, the corporatization of mindfulness and how companies and big institutions and just like, our like mainstream system in general brings in this, like, idea of, like, mindfulness and wellness and…and capitalizes on it and makes it seem like it's up to you to do the fixing for yourself. Like, we're giving you these, like, days of yoga, or like, free candles, or whatever it may be, right? But it's like, yeah, they pathologize the individual for not doing enough to put wellness into their life, where it's like, the opposite is true. It's like, the system has to change, right? It's the system that's…that should be pathologized.
Sarah 32:28
Exactly! [claps] “It's the system that should be pathologized”. You all hear—...heard it here, first!
Mimi 32:33
[laughs] A really important connection that you've drawn um, in this episode already, but also in your other work that we've, like, seen in the...what was it called the panel that you did a few months ago?
Sarah 32:47
That was the Start the Wave panel.
Jordan 32:49
Yeah!
Mimi 32:49
Yeah, sorry!! [laughs] My mind just went so blank there. But you've, you've spoken about this relationship between like, eco-anxiety, perfectionism, and shame. And I would love to know a little bit about your own journey, about, like, craving perfectionism, in your environmental journey, or just in your life in general.
Sarah 33:08
Yeah, this is so personal, because my perfectionism journey is like, one of the biggest sources of my inner work. And, you know, I'm an oldest sister in a white US American family. And I have been…my culture has raised me or I've been socialized to be maternal and care for everybody else, and take on the work of playing diplomat with my family. And um…you know, I think, especially women that were raised in, as millennials like me, like, there was this idea that we could have whatever we wanted, we could dream as big as we wanted, but we were gonna have to be really perfect along the way. Like, we couldn't get angry, and we couldn't be rude, and we couldn't wear something this short or this long, or we couldn't wear this and we had to present this way... And there was, like, a lot of conditions to achieving the dream of, you know, being able to be what our moms and grandmothers maybe didn't feel they could be. And I think perfectionism is woven into that. I think most people socialized as women or femmes have perfectionism woven into their mentality. I'm reading Rachel Ricketts’ book Do Better right now. And she talks about perfectionism as a tool of colonialism which…
Mimi 34:28
Yeah!
Sarah 34:29
Yeah, okay, nice!
Jordan 34:30
Yeah.
Sarah 34:30
Really interesting! And that's been really opening a lot of windows in my mind about my own perfectionism and how to…— I don't want to say decolonize my perfectionism cause I think that's, like, a throwaway term that is not really clear — but I want to like deconstruct exactly who put a lot of these ideas into my head and understand how they served me, because they did at some point, you know? But my perfectionism also leads to an incredible amount of guilt and shame in my life. And in my environmentalism, especially because the environmental movement asks us to be perfect, they— there are terms called plastic free and zero wastes. Like nothing is plastic free! And nothing is zero waste! Because we haven't…Like, nothing is plastic free or zero waste, there is some amount of waste cut— I mean, and Jordan introduced me to this idea of the amount of emissions generated by certain types of videos online. We don't even talk about that as waste, how much…how much emissions do you spend looking into how to be zero waste, right? And I think there's, like, a lot of perfectionism mentality within the environmental movement. And so for me, as someone who was culture as the perfectionist, and…and really likes that about myself, like, why would I be upset that I do such a good job at everything, you know, it's like a really easy way to think of it as a positive trait. But what's actually happening within me is that I start to feel like I'm not worthy, unless I’m perfect. And that sense of worthlessness is so binary, it's like, “oh, I didn't do it perfectly, and therefore, it's not good enough”. And, you know, my team at Good Grief Network says to me all the time, like “do not let perfect be the enemy of good”. And that's like, written everywhere I can see in my life, like, because I will let perfect be the enemy of good. And the shame that lives in me when I don't feel like I did a good job, I think is capitalism living within me. It's the system of capitalism that I allow to live within me, and rise in me whenever I have, you know, that…that desire to do something well, and of course, like, it's with good intention, I want to, let's say, bring Good Grief's work to people. And I want to do it perfectly, because I want to help people heal, but there's a whole series of internal workings in me, that then get reflected out to everyone else in my life, right? That's the important part is “but I'm just a perfectionist with in my own head, I'm doing my own journey, my own work and therapy or wherever”. And, um, you know, dismantling, my perfectionism, let's say, like, that's great. But if that perfectionism still lives in me a little bit, that allows me to have that attitude toward other people, allows me to judge other people, it allows me to expect perfection from other people who might not even expect it from themselves. And it allows me, or it enables me to start seeing my…my “failures” when I don't achieve something as perfectly as I would have liked to see everything below that bar as not helpful. And meanwhile, all those little efforts are what pepper our lives, like, those little efforts are who we are, and they don't have to be perfect to be meaningful. And I saw something recently that was like “the people in your life that you really remember and think about, are they perfect?” You know? “Are they doing something so imperfectly, but with such conviction and passion, that they inspire you?” Like, “were you ever actually inspired by someone who was perfect? Or was that someone you just inherently didn't trust?” Because that's the truth, right? Like, we aren't perfect, and we're actually creating stories of separation and distrust between people when we pretend that we are performed perfection in certain spheres. And…and the thing is that I don't think that realistically, I can start with my perfectionism; I think I have to start with guilt and shame, because those emotions are so much deeper, and so much more powerful, for most people. Shame is usually the most motivating feeling that people have or drags people into the deepest despairs. And I've learned to be imperfect, you know? Like, I will get a coffee in a plastic takeaway cup, if I want a coffee at that moment. Not every time, I'm not like using plastic here— But like, I won't not get it the way I used to. You know, and I don't…maybe I don't know where that coffee came from. I could go down the line to where the cup was produced, where the beans were produced, who worked on that farm, how they were paid. We could—…but what is…what…who's winning from that? Who's winning? Like, certainly not the environmental movement! I'm certainly not creating more trusting and connected friendships. I'm not making people actually believe that I'm perfect every time I decline to get a drink because I didn't bring my cup. What's actually happening is that I'm expending so much emotional energy that I could actually be using to building things that are slightly imperfect, but doing a world of good. And I think that that's, like, the full evolution of w— and yeah it's, like, very hard. It's very easy to say this here and my life, my practices look so different. My practices look like making a mistake on the website, and letting it stay, and sitting with my discomfort for 10 minutes, letting it overpower me and just saying, “I'm not going to correct this right now”, you know? Silly things, but it's painful.
Jordan 40:05
Wow! [laughs]
Sarah 40:05
And rewarding!
Jordan 40:07
Wow, everything you just said, I'm like, “Yeah!”—
Mimi 40:09
Yeah.
Jordan 40:10
—Clapping! Wooow! Like, ah...
Mimi 40:12
Yeah, that was awesome!
Jordan 40:12
That's everything that we're trying to do here. I know there's the…there's the…there's that quote from the Bad Activist Collective that, like, literally summarizes what you said. And it said, “Perfectionism instills shame, and shame is the enemy of growth". And so, if we ever want to improve, and do better, like, we can't let shame and perfectionism hold us back, which is what it's doing.
Sarah 40:34
Love that.
Mimi 40:35
One thing that both of you touched upon in...Sarah, especially in your story about like, the coffee cup is this idea of, like, I think a lot of environmentalists, what they want deep down at the core is to reduce harm, and reduce their own harm and reduce other harm. But in that story about the coffee cup, where you're, like, spiraling down and thinking about where the beans were produced, how much the different people were paid along the way, where was the cup produced, like, where will it be disposed…all of that. You go through that spiral, because you so badly want to reduce the harm, but in going through that perfectionist spiral, you might be doing a lot of other harm to yourself and also to the community around you. And that's something I would love to talk about, is, like, how you've navigated your relationships with your friends, with your family, with your community, and how your perfectionism played a role in…in those relationships and the health of those relationships.
Sarah 41:31
Yeah, thank you for asking that, Mimi, because I'm so glad that you…you drew a point that I wanted to mention, which is, like, it's not harm free, when you go down that spiral. You know, I don't want to do harm to the planet. But there is other harm happening. I think, noting that and that I think that's like a perfect segue to the harm that can happen in our relationships. And I'll start with a story, which is that I was just back in New York City, after two years because of the pandemic. And I live on the West Coast of the United States. And I don't try to...I try to fly not that often, you know, [timid voice] we're doing our best[back to normal]. But I went back to see my loved ones, and I had a few friends... Because New York City is using a lot of disposable dishware, now, in a post pandemic world, a lot of restaurants are not using their ceramic plates and stuff. So I had a lot of friends who were like, “I want to go to this restaurant, but like, they're gonna serve us on this plate. Are you okay with that?", and another friend who I went to her house, and she said, "Oh, my God, like, walk through my kitchen, don't look at how much stuff is— don’t look how much plastics in my kitchen, just keep going". And it was this— And I haven't been to New York in two years. And I've really evolved in those few years. [laughs] But I just had such a reflection of how the first time connecting with some of these people in years, some of my closest friends, you know, my formative life was in New York, like I was there until my mid 20s. And these are the closest people in my world. And the first way that they were connecting was to disclaim something they thought I was going to judge them for. And I felt so devastated by that. And I said to them, like, “I know, I used to be really judgmental, and I you know, I used to perform this perfection of consumerism, but I don't feel that anymore”. And Good Grief has played such a huge role in that. And the more I tell them about this work, the more they can understand the ways that it's transformed me. But I think that we do a lot of harm in our relationships, first by pretending that we are perfect; second, by demanding perfection of ourselves and others, but also, like we…we do such a good job of sharing our…our wins, and judging our losses. Like, we never share our losses as if, like, “oh, I had like such a loss today but that coffee was—
Mimi 43:57
That is sooo true!
Sarah 43:58
—just what I needed! That coffee was just the pick me up I needed, you know?” And so um, seeing each other in the loss and loving each other through a moment that we weren't perfect is, like you said, the…the growth that you can't get Jordan when…you know you're steeped in shame. But I think the thing with relationships that's so important and like creating community is that…um like, like I've started to identify as a hypocrite. I'm, like, “I'm a hypocrite, are you all hypocrites?” [laughs] Like, “I'm definitely a hypocrite”. Um and…and seeing the way other people react to that. It's like you can watch their jaws soften or their shoulders come down, and I could watch my friends in New York have these reactions and talking to them and saying “I'm so sorry for the ways that I have judged you in the past. I’m not perfect and I wasn't back then either!”. And, and there's something that you and I talked about a little bit, Mimi, when we first met, that's like belowed a little but I can't quite— I haven't quite figured this part out yet. But what is it about environmentalism that makes everyone want to…to let their environmentalist friends know that they're doing their best or not want to be judged? Maybe it's the climate crisis is really at the forefront of everyone's minds. But I don't see that with other in—, I don't see like my male friends, letting me know that they're really feminist these days, you know, and like, not wanting me to— like there are other there are other really important global causes that I don't see the same amount of guilt attached to. And maybe it's because like, a se— like you can be racist or sexist, and those -ists are such harmful identities. And there isn't an -ist for not being an environmentalist, like you're not like a polluter. And so that's kind of like what I've come to is maybe it's that that we haven't made. And I think that's good, I don't think we should create an -ists for everyone that isn't perfectly sustainable in their choices [laughs], because those -ists are also very othering. And but I do think there is something really potent about starting to share with our friends our hypocrisies. Like, “you would not believe the choice I had to make today!”, you know? Like, um and…I'll share one here with y'all right now, why not, let's like actually live this sh— live this shit. [laughs] W—... I went to Walmart today and bought a pair of flip flops, because I can't find other flip flops that are produced in a way or owned by people...a company that's owned by people that I want to buy from or, and I am so tired of walking through this house, and getting my feet just completely black on the bottom and walking — I'm in the desert — walking through the dust and getting little spines all over my feet that I went to Walmart and I bought a pair of flip flops there. And that is something that in my past life would have undone me, I would have never admitted this to anyone, you know? But I made an imperfect choice today. And I'm not proud of it. And I'm not justifying it. But I did it. And I think that's just so important to live in that truth. We don't have to find the validation. It's okay, I made an unsustainable choice in a world of unsustainable choices today. But maybe what it inspires internally in me is just like, owning my hypocrisy. Like, maybe what I did is rewire a neural pathway that allowed me to forgive myself in this moment to come on a podcast with two people I respect, with the community I respect, an environmental community, and I can just sit here and be truly me. And maybe that is, like, the most radical thing: not to share it so that someone else can give me a solution to my “problem”, but just to, like, rewire a part of my brain that told me that this wasn't okay, and to say, “You know what? This is going to be okay, like, this one choice is okay”. And it's not a choice that we c— maybe continue to make over and over because we're not proud of it. We don't often make choices we're not proud of. When we make a choice we're not— or a decision we're not proud of, it's usually because we had a lack of choice. And so I think that, like, talking about that is like a signal, like, there is a lot of lack of choice, and we have to make choices that aren't always great. And maybe for me right now, if I'm not going to find a better pair of flip flops, what I did was just have, like, a moment of internal truth and healing. And I think that that's equally valuable for people like us who veer toward perfectionism.
Jordan 48:29
And that ends part one of our conversation with Sarah. Keep an eye out for part two, where we dive more into Sarah's journey and story especially around acceptance, gratitude, forgiveness, trauma, and everything else in between.
[outro]
Mimi 48:45
Thanks for listening to this episode of Imperfect Eco-Hero. Stay connected with us through our instagram @Imperfect_ecohero or email us at imperfectecohero@gmail.com. If you want to learn more about our podcast or see resources related to this episode, visit our website imperfectecohero.com.
