Pursuing an Environmental Career with Jacob Ke
Mimi 0:00
How do I get more involved in the environmental movement in a meaningful way? Am I doing enough? How can I help others become more actively engaged in a sustainable and Earth conscious lifestyle? These are all questions that many listeners of this podcast have asked us. And I think these are questions that any eco-hero, at any stage of their journey, reflects upon on a regular basis. And really, an eco-hero's journey can unfold in so many different ways. The answers to these questions constantly evolve and change. Today we're talking to Jacob Ke, an absolute incredible human being and lifelong eco-hero who has faced these questions throughout his life and especially in adulthood. We're exploring how the local ecology shapes one's understanding of nature, what it's like to pursue environmental studies in school, how to figure out one's next steps as an environmentalist, the hard truth about the challenges of job security and maintaining one's mental health when working in the environmental field, using personal social media channels to share the joys of compassionate environmental communication, and finding magic in nature photography.
[intro music]
Jordan 1:13
Hey, this is Jordan!
Mimi 1:15
And this is Mimi.
Jordan 1:16
And welcome to the Imperfect Eco-Hero podcast.
Mimi 1:19
The series that connects community, normalizes imperfections and empowers heroes.
[end of intro music]
Mimi 1:28
Jacob Ke is passionate about wildlife conservation and ecological restoration. He currently works as the watershed restoration assistant coordinator for the Greenways Land Trust on Vancouver Island in British Columbia. He has an honors degree in Environmental Studies from the University of Toronto, and Advanced Diploma in Ecosystem Management Technology from Fleming College. Before moving to BC, Jacob spent more than eight years in Ontario, where he studied and worked in the environmental field. He is interested in making a positive change in the world, and according to him, he is super nerdy about anything biology and climate change related. Beyond all his work and dedication towards the planet, I am telling you, Jacob is one of the most wholesome, compassionate and unselfish humans I've ever met. Jordan and I met Jacob during our undergraduate studies in Toronto, and he is now a friend of both of ours. Jacob advocates through this Earth with such peace and love, I am so honored that he wanted to join us on this episode, and share his passion and worth for the planet and all creatures on it.
Jordan 2:31
Hey, Jacob, we're super excited to have you today on the podcast. How are you doing?
Jacob 2:35
Hey, Jordan, I'm also super excited to be here. I'm doing great. How about you?
Jordan 2:42
As good as you can be in a lockdown. But I'm really looking— I was looking forward to this interview all week, so…
Jacob 2:49
Yeah, me too. This is the most exciting thing all week. [laughs]
Jordan 2:52
But yeah, let's jump into it. Jacob, you've had a really cool journey so far in just the environmental movement. So I just wanted to know, kind of, if you can describe what your journey is with environmentalism and how you decided to study that in university and subsequently with all of your additional studies, and how have your interest in work changed since then, like what that whole trajectory has been?
Jacob 3:24
Yeah, absolutely. It's been a really long journey. Where do I even begin, I think the very start of my journey to environmentalism, or you can say the love for nature, can be dated back to my childhood. I know it's a long way back, but I’ll keep it short. So when I was a kid, I watched a lot of TV with my mom. And as you know, back then there wasn't as many choices to choose from on TV channel in the late 90s and early 2000s. So as a result, I watch animal and nature documentaries with my mom a lot and she also seemed to enjoy entertainment at the time. Of course, as a kid I didn't know anything about the natural world or much science behind it. So unconsciously, I just found nature to be very fascinating topic and it literally didn't hit me until I was almost done with high school. And another worth mentioning story is I also watched a lot of animated films made by Hayao Miyazaki, a Japanese animator, director and co-founder of Studio Ghibli. So a number of his films has nature centered themes and emphasize on human/nature relationships. You probably have heard of some of his work such as My Neighbor Totoro, Princess Mononoke, and Spirited Away. My personal favorite is Princess Mononoke. Essentially, it is a story about the conflicts between a mining community and forest spirits. The animal spirits in the forest resist the destruction of their home and violence breaks out. It's a very beautiful and artistic story. So if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it.
Mimi 5:03
Yeah, I find that really interesting that, like…’Cause some of our other guests they've said, like, actually being in nature was what made them love nature. But for you, it's like learning about nature through, like, another medium.
Jacob 5:15
I think so, that's, like, the start of it. And there wasn't anything that actualized, you know? It just like, subconsciously, it was plante— implanted in the back of my mind. And when I came out of high school, I…I didn't know what to study in U. of T.. So I was like, how about Geography? How about something to do with the environment? Because I…I did have an interest in it.
Mimi 5:38
That's really cool. So it was like, more like, not necessarily, like, an act of like, “I have to study this”, but it was just like…
Jacob 5:45
No, I was so confused and…[inaudible]
Mimi 5:48
Okay. I feel like that's, like, super relatable that, like, nobody knows what they're doing.
Jacob 5:51
Yeah.
Jordan 5:52
Oh, that's, that's interesting. I always…I always thought you were gung ho about environmentalism from the get-go. Like, that was just kind of what you've always wanted to do, what you always knew you wanted to do. Which kind of is what it sounds like, but I guess it wasn't quite as certain. You just knew that there was..
Jacob 6:06
No, it wasn’t certain.
Jordan 6:08
Cause I was gonna say, was there anything else you were considering, or was environmentalism kind of just like…like, geo— geography, like…Was that just kind of what was on top at that moment when you applied?
Jacob 6:17
Yeah, that was what was on top at the moment. Also, because I wasn't really good at math.
Mimi 6:21
I understand that
Jacob 6:22
Yeah.
Jordan 6:23
I was gonna say, what's interesting is, you watch a lot of na— nature documentaries, but did you ever consider maybe wanting to create your own? Like, go down that more, like, artisti— artistic, creative field? Or were you just really interested in, like, the science behind, and like, just the natural world, just as studying that separate?
Jacob 6:42
I like the imagery more than the science behind it, because it's the visualization of nature that captures in my eye…my eyes. So I'm more into, like, wildlife photography, and landscape photography, that kind of, like, still photos than making uh…I'm not really artistic in any way, so it would be really difficult for me to do, say, like, like a video clip or whatnot.
Mimi 7:11
But I would also say that you are artistic. Like, I was looking at your photos earlier and I was like, “Dang! These are, like, really—
Jacob 7:17
Thank you!
Mimi 7:18
—good photos!”
Jordan 7:20
They really are.
Jacob 7:21
Yeah, photography is definitely one of my interests right now. I just need a really good camera and go for it. But I think my main interest here lies in, like, wildlife conservation and ecological restoration. So, doing kind of more on the ground science work.
Mimi 7:39
So I guess going back to your story, so we just kind of entered into like your university years, and I want to hear about like, your journey was studying this, like, I guess prior to you were just like, interested in it and, and observing it from an audience perspective.
Jacob 7:56
And that's a really great question. So when I started at U. of T. first year, I, like I said, I was super confused about what I wanted to do. I wanted to get into physical geography, but it turned out that my physical— my physics grade was too low, so I didn't— I couldn't get into this dream. So I looked around other programs and courses, and eventually I settled down with Environmental Studies and Human Geography and then minored in GIS, which is Geographic Information System. Uh, yeah, in my second year at U. of T., I learned a lot. So there's some courses that revolved around Multidisciplinary Perspectives on the Environment and the interdisciplinary of the environmental study. And then it turned out that the Multidisciplinary Perspectives on the Environment is the introduction of the…of the multidisciplinary study of environmental problems. So essentially, environmental studies involves a variety of academic disciplines, including economics, political science, history, law, philosophy, geography and cultural anthropology. So it's really broad. Secondly, Interdisciplinary Environmental Studies discusses the causes, current actions and possible solutions to ongoing environmental crisis. Through these courses, I understand that almost every human decision nowadays has an impact on the natural world, which would reciprocally affect the human world in the near future.
Mimi 9:35
In your courses, where you explore the relationship between humans and nature, how is…how is nature, like, talked about and understood?
Jacob 9:45
So in environmental studies, humans and…and we look at human and nature, in an interconnected way, in every aspect. So when I think about human/nature relationship, I think…I also think about ecosystems or what we call Systems Thinking in school. The component…Systems thinking is, the component parts of a system can be, can best be understood in the context of their relationships with each other and with other systems rather in isolation. So we cannot take ourselves out of the equation, it is not nature versus humans, it is nature and humans. Humans are part of nature, and we can never change that.
Jordan 10:34
Wai- I have a question. Just so I.. just so I... just so I how I understood what you just said. So, you said that you guys didn't refer to ecosystems as ecosystems, you refer to it as systems thinking? Or system thinking?
Jacob 10:43
Systems thinking is a way that we approach environmental problems.
Jordan 10:48
Oh, okay!
Jacob 10:48
So when you're trying to solve a environmental problem, you use systems thinking, a way of systems thinking to address the problem.
Jordan 10:58
Cool.
Jacob 10:59
So it's a relatively new term, but it's not so new, in...in a context, like, indigenous cultures that…they always think of…in, like, systematically, think about ecosystem and all the creatures and all the plans within that system.
Jordan 11:16
Yeah, I could totally see why it's so important for people to kind of grasp that idea that literally everything we do is interconnected.
Mimi 11:23
So my understanding is that when you were in your undergrad, it was a lot of, like, more of a human perspective on environmentalism. It wasn't so much like looking at specific, like, not like a biological point of view, right?
Jacob 11:39
Exactly.
Mimi 11:40
Yeah? Okay, it's like human geography as opposed to physical geography
Jacob 11:43
Human geography and environmental studies, they are...So I have bachelor of arts not a Bachelor of Science for reason, because a lot of my classes, there were super philosophical and involved a lot like I said, economics, social studies, anthropology, and other disciplines, in…in the university.
Mimi 12:03
So after your undergrad, then you kind of switch gears a little bit,—
Jacob 12:07
Yes! [laughs]
Mimi 12:07
—and you went into Fleming College, and it was more of that, like, physical…
Jacob 12:11
There's more science, yeah.
Mimi 12:12
Yeah.
Jacob 12:13
Essentially, it was a science-based diploma that I received from Fleming College. Yeah.
Mimi 12:19
So more like, why did you make that shift? Why did you go from that, like, social view to that science view?
Jacob 12:26
Yeah, that's a great question I asked myself a lot, sometimes. And my parents asked me a lot about this. So when…when I was fourth year…a fourth year student in U of T.. I, there was one course, that was an internship that I did with Ontario Streams, which was a nonprofit organization that does a lot of in-stream ecological restoration work. And that's when I started to have a strong interest in learning about biology and ecology. I really enjoyed what I study at U. of T., don't get me wrong, like it was a great program, you might want to study human geography. I would definitely not be able to get to where I am right now without those experience. And then my time at U. of T. essentially built up my understanding to— towards nature and the nature human relationship. And it definitely sharpened a lot of my thinking, my critical thinking skills and my way, address…address problems, the environmental problems.
Mimi 13:40
So now with the…the work that you've done, since you graduated university, and then college, has your interest changed even more? Or are you still kind of taking that very scientific approach?
Jacob 13:54
Since my graduation from U. of T., I pretty much stay at the same path. I stay in the path of conservation biology and ecological restoration, mostly. I found them to be really meaningful work. And they are very interesting in…in the ways of science. You know, I learned a lot of things about animals, like wildlife and their life histories and how ecosystems are actually interconnected. You get to see the natural world, like firsthand, you were literally there that you are actualising all the theories that you learned in schools, which is pretty cool for me. They're seeing all these birds and amphibians and reptiles in the field. You could…I could tell them apart in certain areas, like in Ontario. I could, like, I deal with turtles, I deal with the snakes and most of the birds, which make me feel like…I know all…I know nature, I know, like, where I am, and I am surrounded by the wildlife that I'm familiar with. And I think through that, which is important, then you start to care for the environment because you know their names. Well, I mean, yeah, you…you know, their relationships with each other and relationships with the landscape and also the relationships with the humans.
Jordan 15:26
Really curious, I actually now don't actually know what you do for a living because it sounds really interesting. Like, I know you always worked in nature, and I know you always…you were working in conservation, but what was like a typical day like for you? Just can…in case anyone here is, like, super curious, ‘cause you're painting a really beautiful picture of how you spend your days, ‘cause, at least for me, I'm working in a room with no window on a computer.
Jacob 15:48
So in Ontario, in Toronto, most of my work was with the con— the local conservation authorities, like Toronto and Region Conservation Authorities and Credit Valley Conservation Authorities in Mississauga. For example, one of my position, or my contract position, in 2019 was being a Breeding Bird Monitor. So I was a field assistant to a bird biologist. So my typical day would be getting up 3:30 in the morning and heading to the office, pick up vehicles, go to the survey site around four, because for the monitoring surveys for breeding birds, we have to be there 30 minutes before sunrises. So in order to ID the birds, bird species we…we do it through audio, which is through sound. So you have to learn different bird songs. For each species, they…some species could have up to three, four different songs. It’s…it’s crazy.
Jordan 16:55
I’m just like, how do you study that? Like…
Jacob 16:57
It's crazy! It's insanely hard to learn bird songs. I'm pretty sure most biologists agree. So in order to learn that, you have to be familiar with it, you have to go in the field a lot and also you have to study on your own time to listen to different bird calls and songs.
Mimi 17:13
Cool! Do you find that there's a lot of things that school can't prepare you for? That you just, you have to learn once you're out in the field?
Jacob 17:22
Definitely, there are a lot of things, I'll say a lot, a lot of things that school can never prepare you for it, or prepar— prepare you enough for it. Like bir—like bird identification is definitely one of them because over…over the tim— all of your time in school, there's only one course that teaches you bird songs and bird identifications. Yeah, it's like a language: If you don't practice it, you…you just forget it.
Mimi 17:46
Yeah!
Jacob 17:47
It is a language! Bird language.
Mimi 17:47
What…what other challenges do you think there are in…in the field more generally, and what have you faced?
Jacob 17:56
Um, there are a few things that it's very challenging in environmental fields. One of the most difficult challenge is finding full-time employment. I think that's on the top list of everyone. Because in order to find full time employment in this field, you have to have years of experience in the field and a good education background. And in the environmental field, right now, most jobs are only contract. Like for…for example, me, I'm on contract till the end of the year. So a lot of people tend to find themselves only get employment in the summer…and fall, if you're lucky. And then you spend time off in the winter and hopefully next year, in the spring that you apply and find new employment. So there's a lot of repetitive job hunting every year, which I did for several years and which is not fun. It's very frustrating and stressful for…for all young professionals these days, there are no laws with employment out there just because the economy and how this…this field works because the environmental field is not…mostly not for profit, therefore is simply relying on fundings from the government or charities and donations from corporates, partnerships with corporations and what not?
Jordan 19:33
Well, I…I…from what it sounds like to be in this field with so little job security, you need to have some sort of like you have to be okay not having an incom— income, which I can imagine for anyone who rely so heavily on paychecks, for this not to be a very viable field for them. Like, you have to have some sort of, one, privilege to even get the education then like privileged to be okay working only in the summer and fall months, and… but also privileged in the sense of, like, I don't know how th— how you’d even do that just with your own mental health as well like…And like, for you: How can you even be secure in your job knowing that it's gonna be ending soon? And like you have, you're going to be on that track of needing to—
Jacob 20:16
Yeah.
Jordan 20:17
—find another job, like...
Jacob 20:19
Yeah, yeah of course, I mean, for a lot of people it’s definitely mentally stressful for them. To find…to be able to have the courage and ability to find work every year, repeatedly. It's very tough and a lot of people would take sometimes…take on… take on to more than one job, they would have a…my friend is doing like a part-time job besides her full time job, so. And in the winter, a lot of people tend to turn away from this field just to work for wages, you know, as a server or whatnot, or as a farmer systems in different areas. So not necessarily environmental field. For me, I worked in a small business for about two years, before returning to the environmental field, just because I had to save up and have to, you know, I have other priorities?
Jordan 21:15
Do you ever get, like, pulled to maybe leaving it for job security? Or is the…the drive to want to help make a difference? And because, you know, the climate crisis is looming that you…you…the reason you guys haven't is that you…like, that's what's driving you.
Jacob 21:32
I mean, a lot of people also question themselves, like, why are we here? Why are we still doing this? Just because such a low pay field. And also, it's not stable, does not have benefits. I mean, some…some people might have better benefits, but most young professionals…and professionals, they wouldn't have any benefits up to maybe in their 30s or 40s. Anyway, I've seen people…I've seen people that have given up in the environment field, and switched their career to…in some entirely different field, which is totally understandable. Because you have to…by the end of the day, you have to be able to pay bills, and you have to have a plan for family and the future. Yeah, I think I am just lucky enough to…to have the courage to not think about a lot of these things, because my family has been very supportive, financially and in…in emotionally. So, even though they don't really like me being out there and just by myself, in the environment field, because it's highly unstable. You don't…you don't get paid much doing, like, hard work, labor work, spend your entire day in the forest, in a wetland or getting bug bites and whatnot. But for myself, I…my motivations, definitely, that can justify all of these challen—, you know, hardships, just because that I think it's important to do something — I know this sounds super cliché, and everybody says it — I think it's very important for…for us to do something for the…for the nature, for the environment, for the planet that we live..live on…uh live in. [laughs]
Mimi 23:23
I think that was an excellent answer, Jacob. And, I think, very relatable for a lot of folks. And not just in, like, the environmental field, but I think if you're in like the arts, or even in academia, or there's just so many fields, where I think what you just said is, like, so many people are feeling that. And I'm also…I'm curious, ‘cause you mentioned, like, your family and you have to do a lot of explaining to them. Has that been a challenge for you throughout your journey?
Jacob 23:52
Yeah. Explain what...uh..what I do to my…my parents or my fam— or the rest of family, it's… it's challenging, it's super challenging. For one they are not…they don't have much environmental background. And secondly, they are from a developing country, you know, China, that wi— will use environmental…use the environment more in a natural resource kind of way than, you know, than conservation. So in a traditional, you know, Chinese family, I think that environment is not s— I mean, if you have enough resources, or you're financially secure, then yes, the environment would probably become your…one of your top priorities, but in a lot of cases in…in China that people are in poverty, and so it's really hard to…to care for the environment when you are…you have so many other things to…to prioritize, you know?
Jordan 25:10
Hm mmm.
Mimi 25:11
Hm mmm. I'm curious to know, like, ‘cause you've talked about how others understand nature, including how it's presented to you in environmental studies in, like, post secondary institutions. But how do you understand your relationship with nature? And how has that changed from, like, the various places that you've lived and the people that you've worked with and the things that you studied? So everything from China, to Southern Ontario, to now, the west coast of Canada, like British Columbia.
Jacob 25:40
That's a very interesting question. So when— to be honest, when I was still living in China, that was back before 2010, before I came to Canada, like, I didn't really have a mindset for the environment, or I didn't really pay attention to where I was living. And I didn't discover that connection to nature until I actually moved to Vancouver in 2010, and later, to Toronto, where I…where I continue my studies and my work. So I think in… in Canada, I think a lot of …a lot of places are not developed and there's a vast amount of natural world out there that people don't…don't get to see. If you are…you're living outside of city, then you're probably gonna see it every day, then you would slowly build up a connection to it.
Jordan 26:40
Now having left Toronto back to Vancouver, how's that been too, for you? And just in terms of your own relationship with nature.
Jacob 26:46
Yeah, uh it's... after I moved to move back to Vancouver from Toronto, definitely, there are different landscapes, you know, in Vancouver, they can see the sea, you can…you can see the mountains, and there are many different kinds of habitat and ecosystem here that Toronto did not have. For example, like the Fraser Valley estuary and coastal marsh, you will see a lot of different…different kind of wildlife that do not do not inhabit in… in Toronto or in South Ontario. And your…my connection to my relationship to nature kind of has a…kind of goes a different way from there, because that…that's not the landscape I'm familiar with, after I spent years in…in southern Ontario. So I think it's kind of different to me, they look different to me, in a subtle way. I feel like I kind of know, this rela— this relationship, and I kinda…not know this relationship, if that makes sense. Because just the species are different, the landscapes are different. Everything I look at are just a little off, well, maybe off is not the right word, just uh…like uh…
Jordan 28:13
Different.
Jacob 28:14
Different! Yeah! Not identical to what I was used to. I think people probably feel this way, well, after they move anyways. So for me, it's more like, my connection to…to the nature has changed.
Jordan 28:30
So do you almost feel like less at home in nature, having just now moved? It...is ther-...
Jacob 28:34
No, not necessarily. It just the...it's just a sense of places, you know? In indigenous cultures, they often talk about their ways of knowing and senses of places where they feel like home and because they have spent, you know, 1000s of years in one place and, and they know everything about the environment there, and all the wildlife there, and the ecosystems. So, I guess this can be called, like, a different sense of places that I'm putting myself in…to? ‘Cause in Toronto, there is…it's one place and then in Vancouver, it’s a different place. I just have to start to grow my connection and my relationship with nature, I mean the…the local ecosystem here, slowly.
Mimi 29:29
That's right.
Jordan 29:30
It's a cool idea of everytime you go to somewhere new, you're working on a brand new relationship with nature, even though like you said, it's kind of the same but not?
Jacob 29:39
Yeah.
Jordan 29:39
And I like that you're…you're not, like, just going in with the same, you're trying to learn how to be in this one instead.
Jacob 29:45
Yeah, fundamentally, there are trees. There are plants and animals. There are birds. But if you look more closely, you…there are differences.
Mimi 29:55
Yeah.
Jacob 29:56
There are different habits, there are different kinds of habitats, there are different songs, like, for birds, they have different songs.
Mimi 30:01
I think, yes. In all of our previous interviews, we've kind of just talked about nature as like this one big thing of nature. And I really like how you're breaking that down in your life. But nature and place are so intertwined as well, even though like, yeah, trees are fundamentally all trees. But like the way you feel about it, and the way you view yourself within nature is so different based on the place that you're in, and your connection to that place.
Jacob 30:28
That’s a very good summary.
Jordan 30:28
Yeah, we've never had anyone say that yet.
Mimi 30:32
So the next question I have for you is how do you understand the climate crisis? And why is the way we understand nature so important when thinking about the climate crisis?
Jacob 30:42
Yeah, that's a…that's a great question. For me, I think the climate crisis is real and urgent crisis that is affecting millions of people's livelihood. I'm just a close to home example. My field supervisor, he is a member of the Wei Wai Kum First Nations here at Campbell River, BC. And we're just talking one day at work and we're talking about climate change and climate crisis and the impacts on…on the natural world and in the human world. He was saying that he…when he was a kid, about decades ago, there…there were a lot of coho salmon runs in the…in the streams and rivers in…in the Campbell River watershed. But nowadays, he could barely count any salmon when there's salmon run happening in the…in the watershed. So I think that you don't have to go very far to look for the…to look for the impacts of climate change, you can just look, look around you, and you probably will find some. On the other hand, developing countries with limited resources and less…and people with less privileg— privileges, often get affected by the effect of climate change the most. So for me, the climate crisis is definitely very real. And undeniably, it's urgent and, and require a lot of actions from all parties, not just the government, not just the people from…
Jordan 32:33
No, I just, it's…it's interesting when you ask someone, like, how they describe the climate crisis, because everyone does it completely differently.
Jacob 32:39
Yeah, exactly.
Jordan 32:40
Which I…which I think is kind of the point…is that, I think for so many people, the problem seems super big, and they feel like they need to tackle it in every way possible. But it's cool that every person that we've interviewed so far has been tackling it completely differently, and in different ways. I was just curious, like, if you ever feel, like, overwhelmed by it?
Jacob 33:02
That's a great question. When I started learning about climate change, and all the crisis it causes back in university at U. of T., I was overwhelmed. I was definitely like, what, what, what did I get myself into, like, why I was here? That kind of thing. And personally, I cope with it just by thinking positively. Since I'm in environmental field, so I'm actively making an impact as well. So I'm changing things. I'm restoring…restoring ecosystems, and actively repairing damaged relationships. I think about it every day. At work, we're definitely…we're definitely doing something, but how much can we do and there's only so much we can do as individual in the environmental field to…to help with the mitigation and adaptation of climate change. I think what matters the most is that what everyone else is doing, what the government's doing, what other corporations are doing, and other industries, so everybody has to do their part, otherwise it's not going to work out very well. And that's the most frustrating part because when you are doing your…you're doing your obligations and you are doing your duties and everyone not doing it is…yeah.
Jordan 34:30
Is there anyone in particular that, like, has influenced your journey in environmentalism?
Jacob 34:36
So in…in the early stage of my career that…one of the person that in…inspired me most was Jane Goodall. She...She is a English primatologist and anthropologists, she studied the social and family interactions of wild chimpanzees for nearly 60...60 years. Back in the late 1950s, she did not even have a bachelor's degree when she started to be a part of the research. And at the time, women were not accepted in the environmental view as much at all. And later on, she became one lot— one of the famous scientists and environmentalists in the world. So, I respect her so much for that, because all her…all the work she did, and her positivity and determination to make a change. And for decades, Jane Goodall has been advocating for the well being of environment and wildlife. And I went to two of her talks, one at U. of T., and the other one in…uh I think somewhere in Toronto. And both times, I just felt so lucky that I was able to hear this lady talk. Her positivity for hope is very inspiring. Oh, can I share a quote that...that one of my favorite quote from her?
Mimi 36:05
Of course!
Jacob 36:06
Yeah. So the quote is: "You cannot get through a single day without having an impact on the world around you. All you do makes a difference. And you have to decide what kind of difference you want to make".
Jordan 36:19
Which is very true for you.
Jacob 36:21
Yeah.
Jordan 36:21
Especially.
Mimi 36:22
Yeah.
Jordan 36:22
And all the impact you're making. But yeah, I love that quote, it's a good one.
Mimi 36:25
That's so cool.
Jacob 36:26
Yeah, it’s absolutely my favorite quote from her.
Mimi 36:29
One of your interests is the relationship between communication and environmentalism. And I was wondering if you could chat a little bit more about this relationship and what it means to you.
Jacob 36:41
Yeah, gladly. I think communication is a wider form of education, more so for…for environmental education. It allows individuals to understand and explore environmental issues, engage in public solving and take…and take action to improve the environment. Through communication, then people will learn and understand…understand the natural world and our environment, that I think that is creating a push for…for actions. Because once you understand something, then you will start to care, right? There are some effective strategies that I think could be very useful for…for environmental communication, or communication in general, such as storytelling, drawing from personal experience, or talk about…or just simply talk about environmental issues within the community with other people. And if you're talking to youth or kids, you can make it into, like, a fun activity. I think these strategies tend to be very effective. Depends on the…on the target audience, of course.
Mimi 37:59
What do you find is most challenging when doing environmental communication?
Jacob 38:04
Yeah, I think one of the most challenging thing is that you have to realize that not everyone likes the environment and wildlife, and a lot of people just simply don't care, no matter what you say. So sometimes you would just facing a wall, you…you feel like you're just talking to a bot that does not showing emotions, and that sho— not show any care.
Jordan 38:28
Now you've spoken about how hard — not how hard — some of the challenges you've faced having to like just talk about your own profession and just everything with your parents. I was curious if you've had similar challenges with some of your, like, your close circle of friends and how that's been for you, I guess maybe on a more regular basis, having the people around you, like not agree or not believe in climate change? Or have you luckily surrounded yourself with very like minded individuals?
Jacob 39:01
Yeah, luckily, I surround myself with similar minded — is that a word? — similar minded [laughs] individuals that have the same, you know, perspectives and worldviews. So I don't really have to do a lot of talking in that way to…to my close…close friends. And mostly…mostly I talked to the explanation... I mean, the communication I…communication that I did was for public outreach, you know, to a public, and sometimes to some volunteers. But people I have met, they have been really understanding and accepting.
Jordan 39:46
Do you think you ever actually maybe inspired some of your friends to go into it? Because I know at least personally, for me, you've definitely been a source of inspiration just in general.
Jacob 39:55
Oh thank you!
Jordan 39:55
Okay, not just for me…
Mimi 39:56
Same!
Jordan 39:56
…just for a lot of the group. Yeah, just because, like, you're, like…I don't know too many people who are in the environmental movement. And like, I know that it comes with all those challenges that you were talking about. And you always do it with, like, a smile on your face, even if maybe that's not how you feel, like, you…you care so much. And it's not for anyone else, but it's, like, for yourself. And I find that quite inspiring and makes me want to be a better person, not just for like myself, but for like you too. If that makes any sense.
Jacob 40:28
Yeah, for sure. I'm glad to hear that Jordan. Like, one of my goals is to inspire other people to do…to participate in the…to the environmental field. And subsequently, hopefully, that will affect other dear friends or families as well. You know, creating a wave. That's why I've been kind of using my Instagram and Facebook for more comm— or…more environmental communications reasons than for my personal personal life. So on Instagram, I'm sure you noticed, I have been showcasing my work and nature related things to…to the…to the public. So I kind of set it to viewable by the public, not just friends, so anyone can actually see my stories on Instagram. And I tried to input as much scientific facts or...or fun things, to…to catch people's eyes, you know, to make people think and to make people curious about nature. I've been using it for a few years, just for environmental communication purposes. And there are so many accounts out there that give…that give me the inspiration of doing so. Because I…the only reason I started doing this, because…because of them, because I've seen so many Instagra— Instagram accounts that have the same mentality, the accounts, they're only there for science communications, for sending messages to the public, and people who are interested in the environmental movement.
Mimi 42:14
Honestly, yeah, seeing your posts on social media, like, I just, like, I love it. Like, as soon as I see your name pop up, I'm like, “This is gonna be a good post” because especially, like, the world that we live in, right now, when you turn on social media, you're just bombarded with, like, people's highlight reel, right. And if you're having an off day, or just even just a regular day, where nothing special happened, where it's just like, “oh, this has been a good day”, sometimes it can be very, like, overwhelming to see crazy achievements or whatever it may be. But whenever a post comes from you, it's just like, “oh, like, I know, I'm gonna learn something, it's gonna be something really cool”. I really appreciate that. Because if people have those posts like that, like even like, like our…our podcast’s Instagram, like, it's not our personal account, right? It's our…our shared account, we have it special for this, like, educational purpose, but you're actually using your personal accounts to do this. And I think that's so magical and so cool.
Jacob 43:10
You have no idea how happy that made me feel. Yeah, thank you!
Jordan 43:14
I can echo the same…echo the same thing. And I think your photog— like, photographs, in particular, because I like photography, especially nature photography, I get, like, quite inspired, and they're really good. And so they're always a highlight for me too, because whenever it's a post from you, I know I'm going to get some, like, really cool photo of some bird or some nature shot that, like…like, I know means a lot to you. You're not just taking it because it looks pretty, like, like you actually care.
Mimi 43:39
Yeah, exactly!
Jordan 43:40
You want to, like, appreciate it and have all of us appreciate it too, which is something that I don't think a lot of accounts do.
Jacob 43:48
Yeah, thank you so much for the kind words. I really appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, in my opinion, I think the hardest part in the environmental field is not about the science, is not about…about money, it's about getting people to care. My message is trying to…trying to send through Instagram is that to provide the knowledge and stories to people and help them understand the world that we are often disconnected to. Because I not— I know not everyone has…has the time to be outside to be in nature. And often…they're, they're caught up in…in their own world, you know, for…for certain reasons. So getting people to care, then we can start to grow compassion. Can I also share another quote from Jane Goodall that's kind of relevant to [laughs] this question?
Jordan 44:39
Yeah, go for it!
Mimi 44:40
I love it, yeah.
Jacob 44:42
So the quote is “Only if we understand can we care. Only if we care, we will help. Only if we help, we shall be saved”.
Jordan 44:52
I love that. That's actually very true.
Jacob 44:54
Yeah.
Mimi 44:54
That's very you, Jacob!
Jordan 44:56
That is so you.
Mimi 44:57
You could have told me that you wrote that and I would have believed it!
Jordan 44:59
100%!
Jacob 45:00
Oh I wish, if only I'm that good.
[outro]
Mimi 45:03
Thanks for listening to this episode of Imperfect Eco-Hero. Stay connected with us through our instagram @Imperfect_ecohero or email us at imperfectecohero@gmail.com. If you want to learn more about our podcast or see resources related to this episode, visit our website imperfectecohero.com.
